Impending Redundancy

bornslippy

Hello all,

I would appreciate any advice on the following situation, which applies to me. I work in social care and am on a 3 month trial in a new role - the trial finishes on 20th November.

Back in August this year, I received a redundancy notice out of the blue. My job as Senior Project Co-ordinator was becoming redundant due to the the service it was attached to not taking off in the manner that was expected (this was a little contentious, as I wasn't actually employed at that unit but I won't go into further details here). The redundancy date given was 20th August (rather than pay day), which also coincided with a week's annual leave I was taking. They offered consultation (1 week) with my manager, who was also going off on leave for 2 weeks at the same time. I asked for an extension given the circumstances, but this was declined.

I did attend consultation with Head of Operations, and was offered initially my 'default position' of project worker (6k a year salary cut). I asked how I could be expected to honour my current commitments and responsibilities in that role, and was asked what I did currently. I explained, and the meeting ended very quickly because the person consulting said she needed to consult HR and think further on the situation. The result: I was offered redeployment as a Project Co-Ordinator, same hours essentially, slight salarly reduction (£2k per year). Fine, I accepted in principle with a view to outlining a few things I wanted clarifying on the role.

I put this in writing, no response from HR. Took a bit of chasing and about 5 weeks to finally get a response, which was not particularly useful or helpful. I was told an acceptance sheet would arrive for me to sign - but that has not been forthcoming either. I've had no job description, no input from management either since moving into my new role. I have, however, continued to do the job that I think I'm supposed to be doing to the best of my ability.

So, I am up for redundancy again on 20th November. Either they will make me redundant again (and possible redeployment to my default position) or keep me on in the new role. I can deal with the redundancy happening on this date if that's how it pans out. However, I would appreciate some advice on the following though:

Assuming they keep me on, I would plan to leave the company in January 2010 anyway. I plan to go travelling next year, so this would give me a few more months income to save. This means I would have to give one month's notice and resign on the date I decide. However, in my contract (which is not signed and a general one referring in several places to my offer letter) it says I will have to pay back money for any training received if I leave within one year of the training finishing. I'm pretty sure that I haven't signed anything relating to training (i.e., to say I will pay back any money), and I am currently trying to finish a work-related NVQ (I took this up in March this year, so a long time before I heard about redundancy).

The main dilema for me is that there will be no real benefits to working for a few extra months for them - as I'm pretty sure they will deduct the money paid for the NVQ out of my final salary. I don't know that this will happen for sure, but part of me thinks I would be better leaving at the end of the trail, taking redundancy, and trying to find a temp job for the two months prior to going away. I could ask them to clarify, but this shows my hand which won't be beneficial to me.

The other option would be to leave without giving notice when I've been paid. I don't think this is really the right thing to do though.

I have tried to keep this brief, but wanted to get the context right - so bear with me!

Many thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Ben

jazzyman01

If you have not signed anything to agree to pay back monies for training it would be difficult for the company to make you pay.

If you are made redundant, most companies would waive any payment for training as clearly it is not your fault your contract has terminated.

Yes, you could just leave without resigning. However, if they have evidence that they can reclaim money from you they can pursue you throught the courts. Whether they do or not depends on the amount and whether they can be bothered.

In addition, at some point you will require a reference and most employers ask for your last employer. It will not look good if the response is "left without giving notice and owing the company money".

bornslippy

jazzyman01 wrote: »

If you have not signed anything to agree to pay back monies for training it would be difficult for the company to make you pay.

If you are made redundant, most companies would waive any payment for training as clearly it is not your fault your contract has terminated.

Yes, you could just leave without resigning. However, if they have evidence that they can reclaim money from you they can pursue you throught the courts. Whether they do or not depends on the amount and whether they can be bothered.

In addition, at some point you will require a reference and most employers ask for your last employer. It will not look good if the response is "left without giving notice and owing the company money".

Many thanks for your reply, I agree - leaving without giving notice is not ideal nor good etiquette and perhaps would have been a last resort. I do want to leave on good terms, mostly because that is the way I am. I did undertake the training in good faith and at a time when I thought the job would go to the place that I was led to believe. My view towards the company changed really when I received notice of redundancy (as might be expected) and this change in view has probably motivated my desire to leave overall. I decided to take the redeployment offer because it seemed reasonable at the time and gave me 3 more months in work.

I don't remember signing anything regarding the training, but that does not mean to say they would not deduct from my final salary - and have me chase them for witholding money. My contract is a general unsigned one as well - I don't remember signing or seeing a signed copy - although I think this is not relevant.

It's quite difficult to find info on the net regarding your own situation, so these forums are very useful. I'm just also wondering how I leave my trial at the end of the 3 month period if they decide they want to keep me on? As I've indicated, paying back for the training would offset any advantage I made financially over the two additional months I would work should I stay on. It's not like I can ask them really!

Thanks,

Ben

Te_Awamutu

It sounds to me like the three month trial you are on is linked to redeployment, and on 20th November your manager will review your performance and determine whether this new job is appropriate. If that is the case, and the manager wants to keep you on, then you can't just say you don't want the job any more and want to be made redundant.

If you do want to leave, you will have to come up with a really good reason why this post isn't suitable for you. However, if the managers don't think your reasoning is acceptable, they don't have any legal obligation to pay you redundancy.

If the managers don't think this job is working out, then you will either be redeployed into another job or made redundant.

If you do choose to leave, either now or in the new year, you will not be entitled to a redundancy payment and you will probably have to pay back your training costs. However, if the managers decide to let you go, you shouldn't have to pay for the training.

Hope that helps.

jazzyman01

I have interpreted what you said differently to what te awamutu has.

I took it that you were offered an alternative position as project coordinator (reviewed on 20 November) as your post of senior project coordinator was made redundant. The situation on 20 November could be that you are offered a job which is £4k less than the current one and £6k less than the original post.

If they inform you that you have to take the more junior role I would ask for redundancy as this is not a job of equal value. This would get over the issues of repayment.

If you have not signed anything regarding repayment of training then, as you have intimated, any deductions made from your salary would be unlawful.

bornslippy

Thanks for the input.

Te Awamutu - I was made redundant initially on 20th August, which was 2 weeks short of a years service - so no redundancy pay due anyway. I got re-deployed into a new role and remained in continous service (as per my offer letter) following on from that date. My re-deployment offer letter also states that "if the trail period is deemed uncessful from either side, employment would terminate due to redundancy". That trial period which they extended to 3 months ends on 20th November. It goes on to state that one months notice will be due to me, and that's all I'll get. They wouldn't commit on whether I would have to work my notice or it would be paid in lieu - unlike the first redundancy.

Jazzman - yes, it's possible they will offer me a new more junior post, keep me on in current post, or terminate due to redundancy. I think I can legitimately turn down a junior post and also the current post - as I don't feel it's particular comparable to the post I initially took on in 2008.

As I understand things here, if I leave at the end of the trial or they make me redundant again - training repayment shouldn't apply. It also states in my contract if I should leave within the year of training ending, repayment is expected. If I stay, I will probably have to pay back unless they forget. I haven't signed anything though.

Many thanks,

Ben

jazzyman01

If you have signed your contract then you would be signing to agree to the repayment so be careful.