London South East Trains - Penalty Fare

[Deleted User]

Hi. Im wondering if anyone can help me with penalty fares my boyfriend and I received at London Bridge on Friday night (23/10).

We were staying at a friends flat for the weekend in New Cross and so to travel into London we took the train from New Cross station (zone 2) to London Bridge (zone 1). We made the journey at approx 19:30 / 20:00. At this time the New Cross station building was closed and so we were directed to use the night time side gate to access the platform.

We swiped our Oyster Cards at the Oyster point however this presented an error. As the station was closed and we were unable to seek assistance and so carried on with our journey. (The Oyster point was a check in / check out point not a barrier). Needless to say we found that when we arrived at London Bridge when we swiped our Oyster cards again to check out to open the barrier we were advised to seek assistance. Instantly we were pounced upon by two burly men in luminous jackets asking us to 'step this way'.

We were informed that we were guilty of fare evasion despite having valid Oyster cards with sufficient credit on them. The 'Fare Enforcement Officers' (I presume that's what they're called) advised that the Oyster service was not yet available at New Cross and as we did not have valid tickets for our journey we must each pay a £20 penalty fare. When we advised that the Oyster point was in place which was why we used our cards we were informed that this should have been covered up.

Would this be sufficient grounds for an appeal? We have taken photo's of the offending machine and it can be clearly seen that this is not covered up as it perhaps should have been.

The officer took my details and noted my Leeds address. I stated that we were visiting London for the weekend and he advised we may be able to appeal on this basis.

One other thing we have since noted is that you are unable to use 'Pre-pay' Oyster cards on the South East train service only 'Monthly / Season' Oyster cards are valid. This is only something we noticed the following day when the station was open. There were no external signs to advise this. Again is this something that could be used in our appeal?

Oh also, I've had a quick browse of other sites and from what I can gather they cannot demand payment there and then. The officer took my card details for the £40 fines. We were not given any other alternatives. (Probably saw us gullible Northerner's coming).

We intend to send an appeal letter off tomorrow therefore any help of what we should say (or equally not say) in our appeal letter will be greatly appreciated.

Many Thanks

Gemma

dzug1

Sorry to be pessimistic - but I don't believe you have any real grounds for appeal.

You had no valid ticket for the journey
The Oyster machine (whether it ought to have been covered up I don't know - it could be there for season ticket holders and/or in readiness for PAYG from that station and/or for the East London tube line, temporarily closed) told you your card was no good. You ignored - OK misunderstood it.

So your only grounds are ignorance - which is enough to stop you being prosecuted for wilful fare evasion but probably not enough to get away without paying the penalty fare.

I suppose it's worth a try though.

[Deleted User]

Perhaps not but has got to be worth a try.
Saw this happen to many many people over the weekend so this must be a problem they are aware of. Saying that I fully expect this to remain the same given that its not so much a problem for the transport companies but a nice little money spinner. We're not from London so only use our Oyster cards a couple of times a year (obviously pre-pay) but seems a bit daft to not allow this type of card. Surely the whole point of Oyster cards is to make travelling easier.
Also disappointed to see that [FONT=&quot]Section 8(2) of the Penalty Fare Rules 2002 states:[/FONT]
“The authorised collector may require that person to make a minimum payment that is equal to the full single fare which they would have had to pay for their journey if penalty fares had not applied. The person must be given 21 days to pay the rest of the penalty fare, starting on the day that penalty fare is charged. If the penalty fare is not paid in full immediately, it must be paid in any way that is set out in the notice referred to in rule 8.3”.

We weren't given an option to defer payment so may also challenge them on this.

Bit annoyed that I didn't properly see the message on the display screen. As it was just a touch point not a barrier I just touched on the pad and carried on.

Anyways i'm not letting them have my beauty sleep over this as well as my cash.

Over and out for tonight!

hethmar

Id definitely have a go Gemmi.

dzug1

Gemmidodgers wrote: »

Saying that I fully expect this to remain the same given that its not so much a problem for the transport companies but a nice little money spinner.

Well no it won't remain the same. There is a committment by the rail companies to accept PAYG Oyster on all London suburban rail services (ie within the zones) by... well sometime next year. The reason it hasn't happened yet is Ken (and Boris) being difficult over money and the technical problems of doing it.

And it sounds like you got away with it on the outward journey??

But yes it's been an annoying complication in London travel

FlameCloud

Surely the oyster readers would need to be open to enable people with travel cards loaded onto Oyster cards to travel?

I find it quite strange, I think it is more a case of the OP deliberately ignoring the multiple signs on SE trains saying PAYG Oysters are not valid.

[Deleted User]

Never saw any signs on any trains. The only things we managed was to get up close and personal with armpits of strangers. Sardines in a can and all that...