TRV on old radiators?

Daisies

Hi Everyone,
We've been to view a house today and like it a lot, but we're just pricing up the work that needs doing on it. It has what appeared to be an ancient boiler and old radiators - no way of knowing if the pipework is sound.
Could anyone tell me if it's possible to install thermostatic radiator valves on older radiators, or whether it would make more sense to install new radiators (as it looks like we'd have to put in a new boiler as well as completely re-wire the place if we buy it!).

Thank you!

illzlee

hi, if you really want to have efficient heating install new rads.

the old ones will be clogged up and nowhere as efficient as moden rads.

if the pipework runs in the concrete floors, budget for it's replacement. a lot of 1960's houses i see now have signs of leaks

Wookey

You can install new TRV valves onto the rads if you want, new rads though will be more efficient due to convection fins within them and smaller sizing rads (less water to heat for more output). Downside is cost, new steel rads aren't cheap there also nowhere near the same quality as older steel rads that where made upto the late 80's early 90's.

timmmers

Don't forget that old (vintage) radiators are trendy now...you can sell them. You can also get them flushed and renovated if trendy rads suit you.

This page may help if you look at the radiator related links
http://www.bygones.net

t

Imp

A small, pedantic note,

New radiators are going to be more effective, which means that for a given physical size of radiator, they will produce more heat.

The efficiency of old and new radiators is going to be the same. If you aren't sure if you need to replace the radiators, try them out and see if they can warm the room up in a sensible amount of time. If they do, then you don't have to change them.

Daisies

Thanks everyone!

blackfive

illzlee wrote: »

hi, if you really want to have efficient heating install new rads.

the old ones will be clogged up and nowhere as efficient as moden rads.

if the pipework runs in the concrete floors, budget for it's replacement. a lot of 1960's houses i see now have signs of leaks

I fully agree as the old radiators will definately have sludge in them, they will use more water to transfer the heat and won't be finned to allow efficiently heat up the convected air. These days radiators are more convectors in the way they work than radiating heat.

Not only may there be leaks if in a concrete floor as correctly pointed out but they will be the same as the radiators and contain sludge. Now some companies will tell you that a powerflush will get rid of the sludge but be aware they won't tell you that some residue will remain to get into a new boiler and adversly affect its efficiency.

As the regulations now require that any new boiler installed must also have up to date controls, including thermostatic radiator valves, you may as well get the whole system renewed for a little additional cost and prolong the life and efficiency of your new boiler. That way you'll be able to combat the effects of sludge from day one by having inhibitor in the system. Note that sludge doesn't build up in plastic pipes but they require a lot more unsightly support for a retro fit.

dander

Hello, I'm just in the middle of replacing my old back boiler with a new one. I've decided to renew all the radiators at the same time for all the reasons stated above. Even when my boiler was working I had two radiators that barely got hot at all and sludge seemed to be the most likely cause. I also have one radiator that has rusted to the extent that it is dripping. Even if your old radiators are working well now, they could be on their way to being rusty and leaking, so I think it may be as well to nip them in the bud and get radiators that you know will be ok.

I feel that the radiators I have look old and tatty - not to mention they are all enormously long single panels - and the house will look a lot better for having up-to-date radiators. It's not cheap to replace a boiler, so I feel that it makes sense to pay a little bit extra to give the boiler a decent system to work with. And, although I have no intention of selling up, I do feel I want my house to LOOK as though it's got a good quality modern heating system! Just vanity probably!

blackfive

dander wrote: »

Hello, I'm just in the middle of replacing my old back boiler with a new one. I've decided to renew all the radiators at the same time for all the reasons stated above. Even when my boiler was working I had two radiators that barely got hot at all and sludge seemed to be the most likely cause. I also have one radiator that has rusted to the extent that it is dripping. Even if your old radiators are working well now, they could be on their way to being rusty and leaking, so I think it may be as well to nip them in the bud and get radiators that you know will be ok.

I feel that the radiators I have look old and tatty - not to mention they are all enormously long single panels - and the house will look a lot better for having up-to-date radiators. It's not cheap to replace a boiler, so I feel that it makes sense to pay a little bit extra to give the boiler a decent system to work with. And, although I have no intention of selling up, I do feel I want my house to LOOK as though it's got a good quality modern heating system! Just vanity probably!

Yes dander asthetics do come into this as well as the old radiators will have invariably been produced just with a sprayed primer so you needed to paint them and most of us did this with brush applied oil paint (gloss, etc.). The modern radiators come with a factory applied enamel paint finish that will last the life of the radiator.

You also hit upon another good reason and that of corrosion leading to rust and/or pinholes causing the radiator to leak. Another cause of not having had inhibitor in it and very few systems did have this added to the system until just recently. I feel that if you paint these yourself, apart from touching up a chip, the smart look they have with the enamal finish is ruined.

So if you start with a new system, and maintain the level of inhibitor in the system, not only will you have a smart looking and efficient system but one which you'll be able to just change the boiler next time around. A good investment.

angelavdavis

Hi, I replaced all my radiators and installed TRVs myself over summer. A couple of things to mention:

1) Don't forget the scrap value of your old radiators and pipework, even if the rads aren't period style ones - I got £28 for 11 old ones from the scrap merchants.
2) I originally planned to only replace a handful of rads and fit TRVs but when I tried to manually flush some of the newer rads out, I turned them upside down and discovered that they were rotten underneath so I ended up replacing all except 2. I also added towel radiators into my bathrooms.
3) I have found that by replacing all the old radiators (five of which were going rusty at the bleed valve ends), and fitting TRVs, I have at last been able to balance the heat in my house - even after having a new boiler fitted a few years ago, plumbers have always just recommended upgrading the boiler or fitting a new pump - I was told by more than one plumber that TRVs would make little difference! First time in 7 years the house is really well balanced heatwise and I have had to turn the boiler thermostat down. Previously, the ground and first floors were really over-warm and the top floor freezing.

I was careful as I was increasing the number of rads to ensure that I didn't exceed the existing BTU value total of the rads too and I moved some rads to better areas for heating the rooms. Having lived in the house seven years, I knew which radiators heated the rooms well location-wise and which didn't.
4) When I cut through old pipes, there was no sign of build up within the pipes - although it was clear when you tried to lift a couple of the rads that they were full of rust. I put inhibitor into the system and installed a Magnaclean during the upgrade to catch any particles within the system which I will rinse out in a few weeks once the system has been running for a while longer.

Altogether, I spent £126 on TRVs, £900 on replacing 15 radiators, including two large & 2 small towel rads, 1 period style towel rad and three period style radiators. I also spent £70 on a wireless thermostat, £90 on Magnaclean, £20 on inhibitor and £300 on copper pipe, copper fittings, brass compression joints and misc such as flux, ptfe, gas,etc. I make that a total of £1506 to refurbish a 17 radiator system (two rads which were less than two years old weren't replaced). I did negotiate discounts for some of the goods but had to pay VAT. I don't know what the current price would be to get a plumber to do this work, but I suspect it would be about £250-400 per day labour, so approx £8000-12800 on top of the parts prices for admittedly, a pretty large installation. I dare say they would be able to get the job done a bit faster, but I don't have that kind of money!!!

It took me 8 weeks to do, I had a couple of minor leaks - caused by me not tightening up compression joints enough. I found as I needed to change the pipework to accommodate the new sized rads, that I was only able to fit one radiator a day and I could only work 3-4 days per week due to study commitments. I also had a hiccup when I restarted the boiler but that was caused by my Mum "helping" by fiddling with the thermostat(!)

The biggest benefit now is that I know there are no leaks under the floors as I have examined it and insulated all the pipes under the ground floor (we were regularly having to top up our combi boiler previously so I suspect our rads and perhaps some joints were leaking, but with stripped floorboards and pipes suspended over soil under the floors, it was difficult to trace).

I am not recommending you necessarily do the work yourself, but I thought someone might benefit from me sharing my experience. Personally, I would replace the radiators as have been stated - and scrap the others for a little cash towards their replacements, but be prepared to have to have some work done to the pipework for fitting purposes also. I found few radiators (even those that claimed to be the same size) fitted exactly in the gap left by the old rads.

EliteHeat

angelavdavis wrote: »

Altogether, I spent £126 on TRVs, £900 on replacing 15 radiators, including two large & 2 small towel rads, 1 period style towel rad and three period style radiators. I also spent £70 on a wireless thermostat, £90 on Magnaclean, £20 on inhibitor and £300 on copper pipe, copper fittings, brass compression joints and misc such as flux, ptfe, gas,etc. I make that a total of £1506 to refurbish a 17 radiator system (two rads which were less than two years old weren't replaced). I did negotiate discounts for some of the goods but had to pay VAT. I don't know what the current price would be to get a plumber to do this work, but I suspect it would be about £250-400 per day labour, so approx £8000-12800 on top of the parts prices for admittedly, a pretty large installation. I dare say they would be able to get the job done a bit faster, but I don't have that kind of money!!!

I don't want to burst your bubble or detract from what you've done, but I reckon that's 3-4 days work and I would have been rather surprised, but delighted, to be paid £12,800 plus parts.

P.S. I would have marked up the parts a bit, so lets call it £16K.