Disgusted at the NHS

Oldernotwiser

loftus wrote: »

better still let's just insult the people who were surveyed.

I'm afraid that I don't think that it's a question of insulting the people surveyed to say that they have low standards.

In the UK, we're brought up to think that the NHS is the gold standard for medical care and we have little idea of how other European countries operate and how many of them have more to offer than we do. You read of people worrying about being flown home from countries like France or Spain so that they can be treated by the NHS when, in reality, they would get far better care if they stayed put.

Another indicator is that a large number of people would choose to be treated locally rather than in a better hospital further away, which indicates to me that many people value convenience more than medical excellence. Think of how rarely people change their GPs, carrying on complaining about things but staying put out of apathy and ignorance.

Much of the NHS is excellent but all patients need to be proactive in their care and seek out the best treatment available for them, rather than just accepting what's handed to them on a plate. People who have a wide experience of chronic conditions will know that excellent treatment often has to be fought for!

loftus

I don't disagree with much of what you say. I think it's understandable that people want to stay as local as possible when receiving medical treatment. When we are at our most vunerable is when we want the support of our loved ones. I also agree that there is much to be learned from the healthcare practices of other countries. If we were to start with a clean slate today there is much that would be different about the NHS.
I certainly agree with you about the need for people to be more proactive and assertive about their own needs and to be able to seek out the best for themselves.
All the above points are true though of probably many other countries. You only have to look at the debate in the US where the system is wonderful if you are a have but not if you are a have not.
I still disagree about people's willingness to accept low standards. I think that today people are more willing to complain about everything and anything than ever before. You only have to browse the forums here to see that. In many forums large numbers of posts are complaining about poor service, shoddy goods, poor treatment by staff etc. Public bodies now recieve far larger volumes of complaints. I accept that when it comes to the NHS there may be more reluctance but I think that is diminishing and doesn't unduly skew the figures when it comes to patient satisfaction.
It's been an interesting discussion though.

Mrs_Ryan

Unfortunately it seems that quite often the only time we hear about people's opinions of the NHS is when something has gone wrong.... I've been an HCA for nearly 15 months now and love my job. However, on the flip side, I have also been on the wrong end of gross medical negligence which has basically totally ruined my life. I was advised to sue but whats the point in that? My mum ended up paralysed due to the incompetence of her GP and when she sued she hit a brick wall due to the 'old boys network' closing rank.
On my ward we work horrendously hard and physical and verbal abuse are a daily occurrence that we are expected to accept as part of the job. However, we do get thanks from the patient's families which makes it worthwhile. I work in a very small hospital - one of the old 'cottage' hospitals which means we have less staff - less everything basically - we have no permanent doctor on site at all and any transfers to the local A&E are a logistical nightmare.
However I know there is good and bad in everything - I think the NHS is just going to be one of those emotive subjects as it seems rare to find anyone who has actually had a good experience!

Dr.Rock

bumpoowee wrote: »

Good then you won't mind if I ignore everything you say, as I know several nurses and many people who work in the health sector. You clearly have never worked in any job that could be considered skilled in any way. You should try reading some of the job descriptions as there really is some pretty basic stuff in there. Maybe try reading this http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/nursing_skills.shtml. I used to work in a debt management company and did everything in there but I certainly wouldn't say that made me 'skilled'.

Get you! I don't expect that in your debt management job you had to change cannulas, administer medication, or anything else where a split second decision has an immediate impact on a person. I'm sure you did a lot of things that did require some skill even if they weren't exclusive to that line of work. BTW Nurses do more than just what it says there. I've worked with many Nurses over the past few years, and dated several more so kind of know what I'm talking about.
To me a semi-skilled job is something like a very junior shop assistant or call centre worker. You obviously need people skills and other basic admin skills but as you have no authority to make any sort of decisions then the skill set surrounding this is not required.
If a Nurse was unable to make any sort of decision for themselves and constantly had to call the Ward Sister then they wouldn't be a very good Nurse. They are also constantly encouraged to go on and funded for courses to increase knowledge and training in use of an increasing amount of equipment. Perhaps in the 1850s the role of a Nurse was simply to mop the fevered brows of dying soldiers but, like it or not, nowadays they have a more clinical role and are trained accordingly. And the majority of the Nurses I've met do like that aspect.

Dr.Rock

loftus wrote: »

The biggest problems with NHS is it being top heavy with bureaucrats, having huge funding increases without proper reforms, contracting out to the lowest bidder of essential services leading to a massive lowering of stadards and having to deal with an agenda, and targets, set by politicians rather than clinicians. Of course nurses should nurse, but many, many of them are intelligent and experienced and capable of carrying clinical tasks.

I wish!!! Agree with your point on decisions made by politicans though. The money always goes the way of whatever is currently flavour of the month at the expense of sometimes essential, but less high profile vote-gaining, services.

Errata wrote: »

The difficulty with the Patient Satisfaction Survey is that it isn't sent out out to every patient, and it's also self selecting. I'd be intererested to know what the returns rate is.

Pretty low. For my hospital it's under 10% of total attendances which is a personal point of frustration but the responses are a mix of good and bad so we have to assume that is representative of the full population. It is also handed to the patient at the desk and completed by the patient prior to them leaving.
One premise we operate on is that if a patient complains then we always investigate the issue they are complaining about. If a patient praises a particular aspect of service we always acknowledge them (if they've left their details) and feedback to those involved in that service. Most crucially however, if a patient doesn't complain or praise us we have to assume they were at least satisfied.
If anyone can suggest a better way of gauging satisfaction I would be most interested to hear it.

Errata wrote: »

Loftus, I know what you're trying to say, but it's hard to defend a service which has, as you say, massively lowered standards and expect people not to notice the effect that has on them personally.

This is just not true. With money getting ever scarcer decisions on funding are being made based on patient's satisfaction so it is in the interests of every hospital to provide the highest standards of service.

For everyone who says more money should be put into the NHS, I don't know of anyone working for the NHS who wouldn't agree with you. Where would you like that money to come from? Higher taxes? Fewer police? Lower quality schooling? The money just isn't there!

Mrs_Ryan wrote: »

However I know there is good and bad in everything - I think the NHS is just going to be one of those emotive subjects as it seems rare to find anyone who has actually had a good experience!

It's easy to find people who had good experiences of the NHS. I get letters from people everyday, far outweighing those who are complaining about the experience. It's just that good experiences sell less newspapers.

patchwork_cat

notlongnow wrote: »

If there was a way that I could avoid it then no I wouldnt. Patients dont want to know about death, especially the poorly ones or the elderly ones. also, no matter how well you wash your hands or put a plastic apron on, the next patient then knows you have just dealt with a dead body, which is something that a lot of people have big hang ups about. Plus then it leads to 'aww were they near here' 'what did they die of' etc. In my experience it does neither me, or the next patient any good... but thats just my practice that works for me. Its usually easier to say that 'something came up with a patient that couldnt wait' I used the death of a patient as an example. It could be a whole manner of things that delay us, death is just one of them.

I dont discuss patients wth anyone, you never know who knows who in my town and can put together the most tiniest, mundane little snips of info to realise its Fred from the post office..lol..

I only raised the issue as you said due to patient confidentiality we can't say someone died. Obviously it is hard in a small community to not give more info if you say someone died. However you have just stated lots of other reasons why you wouldn't say soemone died.

I'm sure that many people work in a role where they are unavoidably delayed and due to data protection they can not say why.

Speaking as a patient of the same trust as the OP where appointments were seriously late - communication is the key. If you are kept waiting 2 hours over your alloted appointment time in outpatients we will be a lot calmer if we are informed and not just sitting waiting every time someone is called or a doctor walks past! It is incredibly frustrating and disrputing to not know.

I went to an outpatient clinic and people who arrived after me by upto 3/4 of an hour were seen before me. If they were urgent fine, if they were for a different clinic again fine, but I was told nothing. Then I was taken down to near the consulting rooms only to sit there for another 3/4 hour whilst the person I thought was my consultant wandered off to deal with another patient walking right past me with his entourage! A nurse should have come to me and the other patient waiting with me and explained. We need communication and not be treated like slabs of meat - not until we are on the table at least!!

Maybe I am just becoming a grumpy old woman!

Incidentally just so you don't think I hate the medical profession and don't know what I am talking about both my parents were doctors and I have a number of friends who are both doctors and nurses - in fact my sister is a nurse .

notlongnow_2

patchwork_cat wrote: »

I only raised the issue as you said due to patient confidentiality we can't say someone died. .

No I didnt, I said I cant tell you why I am late.sorry...just being picky. LOL

I DO think the NHS has problems. Its overstretched, but I do think if things were managed better then it would work again. Midwives were struggling years ago with the workload and now there is an influx of people coming here, its much much worse.

Its just physically not possible to give every single patient the time and attention and treatment that each and every one deserves.

I also agree that communication is the key and that there is not alot of it. I do communicate...probably too much..lol. I think if people are kept informed then it does pacify people. It would bug the hell out of me not knowing if I was the next patient or if I wouldnt be seen for another hour. At least I can structure my time better that way.

I moan about the NHS as much as people on here do, and think if the horror stories on here are true then its a disgrace but I can honestly say I havent heard or seen the practice that people have mentioned on here.

A little bit OT but the service I work for that has won awards and gets thankyou cards daily has just been disbanded. We save the NHS thousands and thousands every month but they sold us out to a private company. NOW lets see the complaints roll in. Small chunks are being tendered off to the cheapest bidder at a staggering rate and in a few years there will not be an NHS, it will be dodgy private businesses providing the most basic of services far too cheaply. Now THATS scary. If you think the NHS is bad....its changing and not for the better.

Im proud to say I work for the NHS, I get the best training available in almost any area that I am interested in, which in turn makes me better at my job. The private company that now have our service offer the most basic mandatory training(Life support,moving and handling etc)

patchwork_cat

Notlongnow - your inference was that if someone died you could not tell the next patient why you were late due to patient confidentiality. That is not correct as you are not naming the patient, however I do appreciate how it might lead to awkward questions that could lead a person to deduce who had died.

This is all off the topic and I do hope that nurses on this board are not taking this personally as I would be very surprised if they were involved in any of the incidences here! I think that constructive criticism is useful to all. So my feelings are on an immediate level that nurses communicate and appreciate that patients are busy people too. Unfortunately I doubt any policy makers will read this board, so the main things that are wrong with the NHS are not going to be addressed and we all are patients! I feel that all posters no doubt want the best service everywhere.

As with all public services the NHS is massively underfunded in some areas! Probably not in the mangement area!

tandraig

I know I have complained a lot (especially about a particular hospital) but feel that I know the hospital well having spent a great part of the last twenty or so years mainly with my son on various childrens wards and for myself as a patient.
however, I have had experience of two other hospitals and cannot help comparing the former with the other two!!! in both Prince Charles hospital and the newish Royal Glamorgan the patient care by both nurses and doctors was second to none! indeed, after my experiences with RGH my expectations were low - so was very pleasantly surprised at the care i recieved. yes, i did write and tell them so after being released.
i only once complained in writing to RGH and was disappointed with response - so dont bother complaining now!
but - there were a couple of nurses on the childrens wards who were exceptional!!! marlene the auxilliary and chris the staff nurse - life was so mucher better when they were on duty! thanks girls - bit belated i know - but i hope you read this and recognise yourselves!

Dr.Rock

patchwork_cat wrote: »

Unfortunately I doubt any policy makers will read this board, so the main things that are wrong with the NHS are not going to be addressed and we all are patients! I feel that all posters no doubt want the best service everywhere.

As with all public services the NHS is massively underfunded in some areas! Probably not in the mangement area!

Then put your points direct to the policy makers. Write to your Hospital Chief Executive, your MP, etc.
I can also assure you that management areas are as underfunded as everywhere else.