Liability for Bills after I move out

moggerz

Hi there

not sure if this is the right place for it and i couldnt find any similar post ..so here goes: (I'm sure the mods will redirect as appropriate)

We were going to have some building work within the house (town house: convert garage, move the kitchen etc.) and the 'estate' (odd arrangement though freehold there is an estate to manage the land and from whom you have privilege of paying to ask for permission for various things!!) 'suggested' we use one of their architects to ensure the plans were safe and kosher by their standards etc.

Well as it turned out we didnt even need council permission as it was less than the ?50m2 limit or whatever. The architect took an age over what he was doing, didnt quite do what we wanted him to do and in the end applied for the permission before telling us that he'd later realised that we didnt need to apply!!!

I guess that is by the by as we did not in the end decide to go with it (May 08), we put he house on the market (mid-late 2008) and sold it (eventually July 09). Anyway we got a letter the other day, via redirection, (i.e. 2 months after we had completed the sale) from this architect for a bill of over 2k - stating that he had been overwhelmed with his paperwork etc. millions of hours of as far as we were concerned unwanted work. We had no idea of the extend of the bill or number of hours he was doing. He did give us an estimate of his hourly rate but not for the work to be done.
(this guy isnt a cowboy by all accounts (expensive, yes) - he 's on the board of governors of a local very well known independent school & for most of his clients this is probably small change.

Now question is: are we liable for the bill??
(never mind the ethics for the time being at least!!)

is there legal requirement? I guess he could persue via the small claims court etc.

We are just investigating our options as, things are a little tight and this came as a bit of a shock to the system.

cheers
m

DVardysShadow

You are liable for the work he necessarily did to meet your requirements. If the bill is not itemised, ask him to itemise for all the work he has done. You should then be able to figure out if he is charging you for the planning permission, but you need to be canny about this.

The lesson is never to give anyone free reign on an hourly rate.

moggerz

Thanks -indeed.

Presumably 'necessary work' is for me to negotiate with him in the end. But from a legal point of view - not sure there was an actual contract or estimate of work. We actually were not even sure he would charge given that we didnt go through with anything. (a structural engineer came round for a similar purpose but did not charge on account that we didnt proceed).

But regarding the legal point - isnt that the point of conveyancing to establish bills owed etc or not? We didnt deceitfully claim there was nothing owed. I mean we are still getting bills from the lady we bought it off 3-4 years ago regarding a bill from the states!! (relating to 5-6 years ago or so).

cheers

pinkshoes

What did the architect physically do for you that he was actually meant to do?

I would perhaps speak to another architect, describe the level of work, and see what they would charge, just as a starting point on how much you should pay.

That seems a lot of money for what should have been just a quote. He can't charge you for any time and effort getting permission as it wasn't required.

Hintza

The fact that you have moved out will have no bearing in the case.

From what you say, you do owe him money.

An amount that would be fair representation of the work done is what you are disputing. So ask him to quantify what he has done and suggest you might be talking to his professional body, if you can't agree.

DVardysShadow

moggerz wrote: »

Thanks -indeed.

Presumably 'necessary work' is for me to negotiate with him in the end. But from a legal point of view - not sure there was an actual contract or estimate of work. We actually were not even sure he would charge given that we didnt go through with anything. (a structural engineer came round for a similar purpose but did not charge on account that we didnt proceed).

What did you ask him to do? What did he undertake to do? Did you get a quote? Did he do what he was asked to do?

Methinks you left it vague and now it is coming back to bite you.

But regarding the legal point - isnt that the point of conveyancing to establish bills owed etc or not? We didnt deceitfully claim there was nothing owed. I mean we are still getting bills from the lady we bought it off 3-4 years ago regarding a bill from the states!! (relating to 5-6 years ago or so).

Eh? The bill belongs with you, not with the property, so what has conveyancing got to do with it? If you think it goes with the property, then did you declare it to your purchaser?

makapo

moggerz wrote: »

But regarding the legal point - isnt that the point of conveyancing to establish bills owed etc or not? We didnt deceitfully claim there was nothing owed.

Utility bills, water rates, etc, are settled to ensure that the new owners don't end up paying for bills which the previous owners incurred. There's no risk of that where this architect's bill is concerned, so unless you specifically instructed your solicitor to get a statement of account from the architect and settle it, there's no reason for it to have been settled as part of the conveyancing. But you could check your completion statement to make sure. If the architect was paid at that time, it will be on the statement.

cleo1299

moggerz wrote: »

But regarding the legal point - isnt that the point of conveyancing to establish bills owed etc or not? We didnt deceitfully claim there was nothing owed. I mean we are still getting bills from the lady we bought it off 3-4 years ago regarding a bill from the states!! (relating to 5-6 years ago or so).

cheers

Do you mean that you hoped that if the architect didn't get his bill in before the property was sold, it would either lapse or be inherited by the new owners?

If that was what you hoped, you hoped in vain. If there was a contract (verbal or written) between you and the architect, it's you that owes the money -- though how much is owed seems uncertain. You may be able to negotiate a reduction in the bill.

moggerz

Well anyway thanks Guys - there wasnt an estimate as far as I remember (my wife deals with most of this sort of stuff), just a letter outlining his hourly rates (Which were high to be fair).

We asked him to do a few drawings to move the kitchen to the garage and a loft conversion. He came round took a few pictures, then came back with a few drawings. ...end of!! He did do an application but that was, as even he pointed out, rather a waste (I mean our builder told us this and even the council said this over the phone!!). The bill was sort of itemised, though not to what was done during those hours. Some by him and some by his ?assistant.

It was rather alot of hours for the output. Will look through the docs further.

I do like the idea of asking another architect and also going back to him with our own version of events. Right now the wrong address buys us abit of time!!

moggerz

cleo1299 wrote: »

Do you mean that you hoped that if the architect didn't get his bill in before the property was sold, it would either lapse or be inherited by the new owners?

LOL Cleo - well sort of!! ;-) It came as such a shock, I wasn't sure what to think.

just to re-iterate we didn't expect anything given the time between what he had done and the fact that we didn't go through. TBF its not exactly a reason to rush through a sale even if we did.

Hintza

moggerz wrote: »

LOL Cleo - well sort of!! ;-) It came as such a shock, I wasn't sure what to think.

just to re-iterate we didn't expect anything given the time between what he had done and the fact that we didn't go through. TBF its not exactly a reason to rush through a sale even if we did.

He would have been awaiting further instructions from yourselves which you didn't give him. So he has now tendered his account seems fair enough.

Did you ever ask him for his bill?