Tenency agreement out of date... what are our rights?

downhillfast

I'm in a strange situation....

A couple of years ago I started renting a property owned by a family member's partner. We were given a preferential rate below market value so we did not concern ourselves too much with bothering to get them to fix things and did a lot of sprucing-up jobs ourselves. A few months ago they decided to put up the rent by 33ish% (which in our eyes actually takes it higher than what the property was worth before our sprucing up jobs!) We didn't want to cause trouble so wrote a letter outlining a number of jobs we felt they should do to justify the rental increase and also mentioned that we had started a decorating job but with the rental increase could not afford to (or justify) finishing. Needless to say very few of these jobs have been done in the 3 months of inflated rent and we have decided to move now (for other reasons mostly). So anyway, now comes the trouble.... I mentioned to them that the decorating job we started before the rental increase was still unfinished and they basically said it was our responsibility to finish it - we obviously wouldn't have done decorating on a house rented say throught an agency but we figured it was mutually beneficial to each party and we were grateful of the initial low rent. This has effectively stirred up a lot of trouble in our family and the LL party want to try to do everything to the letter of the law now... YET WE DON'T HAVE AN IN DATE TENENCY AGREEMENT.... is the initial 12 month contract we signed when we moved in (which still has the lower rental amount) still valid even though it has no mention of it being a rolling contract once the initial 12 months is up? I just want to know what my rights are really and whether she has any right to sue me should we still refuse to finish the decor! Any comments much welcomed. :cool:

franklee

If you stay past the end of the fixed term without signing up to anything new then you automatically go into a statuary periodic tenancy. All the terms and conditions still apply except those to end the tenancy. Now the landlord needs to give at least two months notice and the tenant at least one month, both notices to end at the end of a period.

If you paid a deposit it should have been protected in a scheme. If not protected then a landlord's S21 notice is invalid and also you can sue for 3x deposit. The LL should have a gas safety check done once a year and you should be given the safety certificate.

On a periodic tenancy if the landlord wants to raise the rent he can either do that by mutual agreement with the tenant or he needs to serve a section 13 notice. Were you served one? If not then you could have gone on paying the old rent till served properly.

You should not decorate without the written consent of the landlord and as you started it I'd expect you are responsible for making good or being charged to put it right after you have left probably by taking it from your deposit.

Section 13 notice:

http://www.tenancyagreementservice.co.uk/rent-increases.htm

http://www.letlink.co.uk/letting-factsheets/factsheets/factsheet-13-procedure-for-increasing-rents-in-england-and-wales.html

downhillfast

franklee wrote: »

If you stay past the end of the fixed term without signing up to anything new then you automatically go into a statuary periodic tenancy. All the terms and conditions still apply except those to end the tenancy. Now the landlord needs to give at least two months notice and the tenant at least one month, both notices to end at the end of a period.

If you paid a deposit it should have been protected in a scheme. If not protected then a landlord's S21 notice is invalid and also you can sue for 3x deposit. The LL should have a gas safety check done once a year and you should be given the safety certificate.

On a periodic tenancy if the landlord wants to raise the rent he can either do that by mutual agreement with the tenant or he needs to serve a section 13 notice. Were you served one? If not then you could have gone on paying the old rent till served properly.

You should not decorate without the written consent of the landlord and as you started it I'd expect you are responsible for making good or being charged to put it right after you have left probably by taking it from your deposit.

Section 13 notice:

http://www.tenancyagreementservice.co.uk/rent-increases.htm

http://www.letlink.co.uk/letting-factsheets/factsheets/factsheet-13-procedure-for-increasing-rents-in-england-and-wales.html

Thanks for your comments.

We entered into the arrangement in a "friendly" way... were not asked for a deposit and just paid as we went at the beginning of the month. As it was such a relaxed situation we had no problem in returning the favour by seeing to improving the property regarding decoration, replacing flea infested carpets (I was bitten whilst removing them!), a major overhaul of the bombsite back garden... and even sourced a new kitchen and had it installed in place of the rotten, falling to pieces (literally) one! We obviously knew that we would never be removing these from the property and very much saw it at the time as "you scratch our back, we'll scratch your's" kind of thing. We did not mind spending the £3k-ish over the time in the house as it was for our benefit in the first instance and a "thankyou" to the LL in the second. We have increased the value of their property by thousands and made it very saleable on the rental and selling market - albeit minus the decor to the HS&L - all we asked for in return was to be treated fairly when we gave notice to leave... yes the HS&L is undecorated but all the expensive stuff that we did far outweighs that.

This has turned into such a mess now and I know I am partly to blame by not insisting that everything was done by the book in the first place... I am not the only one at fault though as the LL obviously saw it as an opprtunity to get around the red tape as we have only just had a gas safety check carried out - the last one having been done when we moved in 2.5 years ago!

Jowo_2

What does your original tenancy agreement say about decoration (i.e. asking permission before doing it), responsibility for the garden and so forth?

Was there a signed inventory/schedule of condition at the outset of the tenancy?

chappers

Agreed was there a signed inventory at the start of the tenancy, if not then your LL doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Personaly speaking I wouldn't worry you have no deposit to worry about and owe no rent, incidently by paying the increased rent you have basically agreed to the rent increase. I would just give your one months notice to quit, as your original contract is still in place.
My opinion is that if it came to court with regards to them trying to sue you that any judge would find in your favour and at the worst it would be your word against theirs as to the state of the property now compared to when you moved in (do you have any proof e.g photos of the house/garden before you improved it) and any judge would probably just say that the LL should have protected his interest by providing an inventory at the commencement of the tenancy.

Fire_Fox

downhillfast wrote: »

Thanks for your comments.

We entered into the arrangement in a "friendly" way... were not asked for a deposit and just paid as we went at the beginning of the month. As it was such a relaxed situation we had no problem in returning the favour by seeing to improving the property regarding decoration, replacing flea infested carpets (I was bitten whilst removing them!), a major overhaul of the bombsite back garden... and even sourced a new kitchen and had it installed in place of the rotten, falling to pieces (literally) one! We obviously knew that we would never be removing these from the property and very much saw it at the time as "you scratch our back, we'll scratch your's" kind of thing. We did not mind spending the £3k-ish over the time in the house as it was for our benefit in the first instance and a "thankyou" to the LL in the second. We have increased the value of their property by thousands and made it very saleable on the rental and selling market - albeit minus the decor to the HS&L - all we asked for in return was to be treated fairly when we gave notice to leave... yes the HS&L is undecorated but all the expensive stuff that we did far outweighs that.

Add up what you spent on (discounted) rent and what you spent on 'improvements' .... why didn't you just rent somewhere at normal market rate and save yourself the hassle? Seems to me you did all this DIY for your own benefit, and are now trying to make out you did it for mutual benefit.

franklee

chappers wrote: »

Agreed was there a signed inventory at the start of the tenancy, if not then your LL doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Personaly speaking I wouldn't worry you have no deposit to worry about and owe no rent, incidently by paying the increased rent you have basically agreed to the rent increase. I would just give your one months notice to quit, as your original contract is still in place.
My opinion is that if it came to court with regards to them trying to sue you that any judge would find in your favour and at the worst it would be your word against theirs as to the state of the property now compared to when you moved in (do you have any proof e.g photos of the house/garden before you improved it) and any judge would probably just say that the LL should have protected his interest by providing an inventory at the commencement of the tenancy.

But the room in question is the HS&L which the OP has started decorating. I doubt the OP would want to claim in court it was half decorated like that when he/she moved in inventory or not. As for improving other rooms and replacing the kitchen, unless the landlord wanted it done those expenses fall to the OP and should not be mixed up with this room. OK the property is overall improved but if that was the OP's choice then the OP bears those costs, the LL may not like the OP's choices in any case, or may not have wanted to spend out on such things as yet.

chappers

totally agree I wasn't suggesting that the tenant had any grounds for claiming anything for the work they had done just that, either party has no proof if an inventory wasn't taken at the commencement of the tenancy.

But a judge may look more favourably towards the tenant if he could see that the place had been improved by the tenant rather than damaged.

poppysarah

Fire_Fox wrote: »

Seems to me you did all this DIY for your own benefit, and are now trying to make out you did it for mutual benefit.

I don't think a landlord can fail to benefit from good quality (non gas/non elec) DIY done by tenants.

McKneff

franklee wrote: »

But the room in question is the HS&L which the OP has started decorating. I doubt the OP would want to claim in court it was half decorated like that when he/she moved in inventory or not. As for improving other rooms and replacing the kitchen, unless the landlord wanted it done those expenses fall to the OP and should not be mixed up with this room. OK the property is overall improved but if that was the OP's choice then the OP bears those costs, the LL may not like the OP's choices in any case, or may not have wanted to spend out on such things as yet.

To be honest (and be honest with yurself) while you did these improvements you did them for your own benefit and got low rent thrown in. To save all the hassle I would just get on with it. Finish the hs&l, and move on. Job done. Hassle gone.

downhillfast

McKneff wrote: »

To be honest (and be honest with yurself) while you did these improvements you did them for your own benefit and got low rent thrown in. To save all the hassle I would just get on with it. Finish the hs&l, and move on. Job done. Hassle gone.

Not gonna happen... the way I see it is that even thought the HS&L has no wallpaper or paint on the walls... it is still in a better condition than when we moved in! We have stripped back and repainted all of the woodwork... we then downed tools when they put the rent up to an unjustified level. We never had a problem with paying the market value... we just believed that based on the condition of the property when we moved in it was unfair to use the improvements we had made to the property as their justification in the valuation of the rental level! Their new agent is coming round next week so I will be interested to hear what they will be marketing it at now... and what it would have been should it still be stuck somewhere between 1975 and 1985 with livestock!

And just for the record I am being honest with myself... I am not a naturally selfish person so was not doing it entirely for my own benefit - it really was as a thankyou for letting us move in to their property at short notice with very reasonable rent. Don't judge everyone else by your own standards! :A