Houses

carolt

Cleaver wrote: »

Just to ask a really blunt question... does the school matter that much? I always thought it came down to the parent's level of interest and the kid's attitude when looking at how well they do at school.

I went to a pretty rough / average school. The kids that tried hard and had interested parents got As and Bs, whilst the kids that didn't give a sh*t and had parents who cared even less got Es and Fs.

And I just know that this is going to be insulting, so sorry in advance, but the idea of picking a region to live based on the schools and OFSTED reports seems a touch depressing.

Can only echo others' posts, esp fc123 - it does matter, but how much depends on the individual child; some are more influenced by their peers, others are more strong-minded.

My eldest DD, whose schooling we're primarily considering now, is very much influenced by her peer-group, and I think is a good example of the kind of child who would do worse if there was a generally 'it's not cool to be clever' attitude. Plus she needs good teaching - even the brightest kids do better if they don't have to teach themselves! - and work that is stretching. I've generally been happy with her primary school, but one of my criticisms is that, being at the top of the class generally, the work she's given isn't always stretching enough - she gets bored, fed-up generally and there's no point wasting her time. She is motivated to learn, when the work is at the right level, so I want her to have the opportunity to have classes at the right level, with similarly bright and/or motivated pupils, taught by teachers who know what they're talking about.

Re whether it's worth moving for, that's a different matter. I think if we'd bought a couple of years ago, we'd be very unlikely to move purely to be in a different catchment.

BUT, in our case, we're renting and view our current address as temporary anyway. So if we're going to move, we'd be silly not to consider schools. Otherwise we might find ourselves in the position of the close friend I mentioned earlier, who moved at the peak of the market into an enormous, over-priced 5 bed house that they couldn't really afford then and certainly couldn't afford to move from now (neg equity...) WITHOUT checking the school catchment areas first. She's now very upset to discover she's not in the right catchment for any of the decent non-selectives, but doubts her DD will get into a selective school.

I find that much weirder - I couldn't imagine committing to live in an area for a long, long time - buying my 'dream' home, without first checking out schooling.

carolt

StevieJ wrote: »

I was amazed to find out that Michael Wood the historian went to primary school in Moss Side and Wythenshawe, didn't do him any harm

Wood was born in Moston, Manchester. He studied at Heald Place Primary School in Moss Side, Manchester. When he was eight, his family moved to Wythenshawe, where he went to Benchill Primary School, and later Manchester Grammar School, where he started taking part of theatre, including the first British amateur production of Brecht's The Caucasian Chalk Circle [4].
He did his graduation in History and English at Oriel College, Oxford, and even tour the US for six weeks with A Midsummer Night's Dream in his final year. Later he did post-graduate research in Anglo-Saxon History, also from Oriel College[1][4].


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Wood_%28historian%29

My FIL was also born in Moss Side and went to Manchester Grammar School. Bright boys could and did, in those days.

Very different to now, though.

fc123

pingu2209 wrote: »

You are the subject of your environment. Who you mix with matters!

I disagree with a that a little bit (but only a little ) ...it is more to do with the personality and the individual.
Also, some people stay in the mindest of their upbringing and others reject it. It also works both ways.

Son has known a very priviledged girl for some years. Unbelievably wealthy upbringing, good schooling, everything provided for and very pretty and smart too.
Was set for a 1st in Physics at Uni and is now at home (OK it is a swishy multi million pound jobby) working P/T in a bar after only getting a 3rd and stuck into a seriously heavy coke habit. Unfortunately, she can afford the habit due to a generous allowance from parents as 'she decides what to do'. I don't think they have any idead. Thye think the wide eyes are due to her natural energy.


I have written about our niece.
She has a brother. only 2 years difference, same chaotic (only IMHO...pls don't tell my MiLaw I said that ) upbringing and he is determined to do ''better''. By 'better', I mean he wants to work hard to obtain things he feels are important to him at his point in life now (aged 20) and they aren't all material things. He has chosen to reject his mothers and sisiters lifestyle and worked out a way to have a different one. The one he has chosen to aspire to. He associated with the same people as his sister.


You have contrary humans and non contrary and doesn't matter where they were brought up. Some will follow suit and others will reject their original upbringing....whatever it was.

LydiaJ

dopester wrote: »

Ok I'll concede a few of the disadvantages you point out, but still believe there are many advantages too. Also I suspect if parent's are required to contribute directly to their kid's education, even if it's just a couple of pounds a day, to £5, £10, £20 or whatever, it would be a positive thing overall.

My old school till the age of 10 (left at 9 though due to relocation) was just a big old house. It was run well as a school (private school). Yes the fees were at a certain market-rate, but if student numbers began to drop from 60 places due to a squeeze in wider market circumstances, I'd expect them to lower fees to meet a rate the market can meet. Many more smaller private schools doing that, with the more desirable being able to command the higher fees.

I know this much; if the funding to, or quality of, the state-school system drops for what are now seen as good schools, it would put me off sending my children to attend. If we see a big rise in the number of of private education entrepreneurs setting up private schools - competing on fees to match the market with bear for affordability, with higher standards than available in the state sector - I'll be sending my kids to one of those private schools.

Even if a smaller school folded due to low numbers, it wouldn't necessarily be some major issue. If it was an old big house you turn it back into a house without much fuss, or find another use for it. The teacher(s) look for work at a market rate elsewhere at another private school. Yesterday I noticed loads of buildings / houses / empty office blocks, which looked to have the makings of being convertible to small schools.

Anyway, the future is with private education in my opinion (without getting into arguments with schools in isolated locations where there are few kids in an area anyway.)

Small schools (the sort that will fit into a big old house) are reasonably viable at primary level. Lots of primary schools (both state and private) have only one class per year group, or sometimes shared classes with two year groups in them. Primary education lends itself to this sort of structure. Each class only needs one teacher (with maybe a swap for music or PE or something) and all the children in each class learn all the same things very nearly all the time.

It's much harder at secondary level. To compete with bigger schools, you have to be able to offer a choice of subjects at GCSE (and at A-level if you have a 6th form which small schools usually don't). This means that the minority subjects have very small class sizes that are really not economically viable unless you push the fees up a long way. You also have to find staff for these minority subjects who are either part time or able to teach more than one subject, as there aren't enough kids to make a whole timetable of Spanish, or food technology, or whatever it is. Small secondary schools also have difficulties in the economics of facilities: even if you only have enough kids to occupy your laboratory/studio etc for half the time, you still need a whole room for it and all the kit to equip it. Furthermore, it's much more disruptive for kids if the school goes bust half way through their GCSE courses than for primary kids for whom the precise details of the curriculum are much more fluid.

But I entirely agree that in fee paying schools you don't get parents who don't care about education, and that that's an advantage to the school. In free schools you get many parents who do care very much about education, but if you have a small minority who don't, they can make life difficult for everyone.

ETA Perhaps I should say what point of view I'm writing from. I was educated at an independent school myself, and I now teach part time in a large independent secondary school. As a single parent working part time, I am unlikely ever to be able to afford to send my kids to fee paying schools. The cheapest of the independent secondary schools in my town would set me back over £150k at today's prices for two kids over 7 years - that's not possible for me. I'm aiming to live in the catchment of a good comprehensive to get the best education for my kids that I can realistically afford.

lostinrates

LydiaJ wrote: »

But I entirely agree that in fee paying schools you don't get parents who don't care about education, and that that's an advantage to the school. In free schools you get many parents who do care very much about education, but if you have a small minority who don't, they can make life difficult for everyone.

actually, I do disagree with this.
It was at the nieces big-fee paying primary that I discovered some 5 year olds could neither speak properly or eat with even spoons, their parents thinking they could deliver a child who had been fed only meagre diet of intellectually stimulating experience and come back and pick up a child ready for Oxbridge and/or career with people they new in the media. I don't remember this from school when I was small, but maybe when tiny we were less judgemental:o

ETA: considering the point I'm making, I really should edit this, don't you think?

LydiaJ

lostinrates wrote: »

actually, I do disagrre with this.
It was at the nieces big fee pying primry tht I discovered some 5 year olds could neither spek properly or et with even spoons, parents thinking they could deliver a child who hd been fed only meagre diet of intellectul stimulating experience and come back and pick up a child ready for Oxbridge and/or career with people they new in th media. I don't remember this from school when I was small, but maybe when tiny we re less judgemental:o

Oh yes, you get that. At secondary level you don't see so many that can't eat with a spoon, but you get plenty whose parents feel "I'm paying for my child to get straight A's at A-level, so you ought to make sure they get them." But what you don't get is "How dare you try to make my child sit still, be quiet and do some work" or parents who aren't able to make sure that the kid actually attends reasonably regularly.

Perhaps I should have made a distinction between "care about education" as in "want their kid to end up educated" and "care about education" as in "be bothered to try to do their part of the process".

dopester

LydiaJ wrote: »

ETA Perhaps I should say what point of view I'm writing from. I was educated at an independent school myself, and I now teach part time in a large independent secondary school. As a single parent working part time, I am unlikely ever to be able to afford to send my kids to fee paying schools. The cheapest of the independent secondary schools in my town would set me back over £150k at today's prices for two kids over 7 years - that's not possible for me. I'm aiming to live in the catchment of a good comprehensive to get the best education for my kids that I can realistically afford.

Even if some of the challenges you point out for smaller private schools at secondary level I accept, I still believe there are opportunities for new entrants in the arena of private education to challenge existing private schools.

It must be possible to give a child a private school education with high standards of schooling for half of that £8,333 per year, per child (using £150K.. assuming to 16 years of age) (or much, much less) and still have the school tick-over (non-profit) or profit. There needs to be new entrants to challenge those high-fee private schools and to offer alternatives to state schools. Especially if funding to your favoured comprehensive reduces and standards fall.

mewbie_2

To Cleaver.

Have kid = change views.

Love Mewbie x

fc123

Schools going bust during midway through GCSE course. Yup..happened to us.
Worse, they lost a load of work too. My daughters art work for 1st year has vanished into thin air. Half term will be spent trying to replicate some of it. Much harder when one is doing it at home rather than in a studio.....and we are hgoing to have a very non MSE trip to an artshop to get equip and materials.

I can't see indie schools prices going down as the bulk of the costs are wages and they are increasing with all the new employment laws.
We used to estimate salaries (back of an enevelope style) as being
30 % odd more than paid. £7ph cost us approx £10phr.
You have employers NI plus you have to add on weeks for hols, sick etc etc.


Handily, Cleaver isn't prepping for kids so he can buy a house where he likes.;).

dopester

fc123 wrote: »

I can't see indie schools prices going down as the bulk of the costs are wages and they are increasing with all the new employment laws.

A lot of that red tape needs to be cut imo.

Handily, Cleaver isn't prepping for kids so he can buy a house where he likes.;).

Yes but not so long ago, Cleaver couldn't really imagine living anywhere but within the vibrant City itself. Maybe he should prepare for the unexpected, or for his original plans to change with a bit of time.

About your daughter's school closing. I remember your original post on that clearly. Your daughter coming home with her friends.. letting you know. You having to weigh up things for future decisions (think it included relocating elsewhere from where you were living most of the time).

At the time I felt annoyed (for you) that the school closed without much/any warning to parents.

Has the school reopened at all? Is it just there empty?