AUT Strike

melancholly

jr666 wrote:

might i remind you that without us 'distractions' you wouldn't even have a job, you too were once a 'distraction'.

I'm sorry but i supported the lecturers up until they rejected the 12.8%, asking for more on top of that is not only selfish but is only going to anger the people very people your job depends on, students.

If you'd rather be doing research all the time then there are plenty of research positions availiable in 'industry' where you will never have to deal with us 'distractions' again.

I didn't mean to start an aggressive tone (and re-reading my post, i don't think it had one!).......distractions include hundreds of meetings, organising open days, admin duties etc etc - they are all associated with students, but are not teaching - and these are the activities that lecturers are objecting to - if there are 30% more people on a course, that's 30% more marking but 0% extra pay. i have great sympathy for all the students going through hell at the moment- i said that. everything doesn't need to be a heated arguement.... especially not on MSE!

jr666 - i'd appreciate your comments not being so personal, or at least you could ask things rather than making inaccurate assumptions - i am not a lecturer, and in my subject there simply is no industry alternative. i don't know if you intend to be so combative, but i personally don't see MSE as a place for flaming. all the lecturers i know do work hard - it obviously isn't universal, you get slackers everywhere! they may only be in uni for 6 hours a day, but with 3/4 hours of work at home most nights, and having to work at weekends, their hourly rate is pretty poor.

i think a pay rise in real terms over 3 years of 5% isn't much of an offer - you disagree, that's fine! i personally believe that the pay schemes for academia are embarassing compared to other public sector jobs - especially with the poor job security at the start of a career.

either way - the NUS supports the strike - and they are the people who are meant to represent the interests of students (note the absence of the work 'you'!). people with strong feelings should send an email to an NUS rep..... while the NUS supports the strike, i can't see it ending.

i think ffeindadifyr made a really salient point about the way the universities have dealt with the negotiation - they ignored it assuming everyone would back down. there is increasing bad feeling about the situation, but at least some of it should be directed at the universities who have handled the situation spectacularly badly.

and btw - linzibean - what subject gives you an 8 hour exam?!?! that sounds horrific, strike or no strike! good luck - i'd be unconscious after sitting an exam that long!

linzibean

melancholly wrote:

and btw - linzibean - what subject gives you an 8 hour exam?!?! that sounds horrific, strike or no strike! good luck - i'd be unconscious after sitting an exam that long!

It's one of those rediculous "open exams" - they expect three high quality essays of around 2000 words, fully researched using up to date sources, in 8 hours. Thats over half a dissertation!! It's a real nightmare, I'd prefer a closed exam....

I do archaeology though, and they like making us work hard

melancholly

linzibean wrote:

It's one of those rediculous "open exams" - they expect three high quality essays of around 2000 words, fully researched using up to date sources, in 8 hours. Thats over half a dissertation!! It's a real nightmare, I'd prefer a closed exam....

I do archaeology though, and they like making us work hard

sounds like it!
good luck... i'll be thinking of you tomorrow.......... all day!
hope it goes really well!

ffeindadifyr

8 hour exam - Arggghhh!!!! My longest exams at uni were only 2hrs long (although I did have 6 exams each semester!)

ffeindadifyr

Just so that you can all see - this is latest info regarding dealings between the AUT and the Universities - hopefully tomorrow this strike can be resolved!

AUT welcomes new pay negotiations


The AUT today (Monday) welcomed confirmation that the University and Colleges Employers’ Association (UCEA), who represent vice-chancellors, will meet with the unions involved in the current pay dispute.


Since the talks stalled on Monday 8 May, AUT, and sister union NATFHE, have been seeking further negotiations to try and resolve the current crisis that has left students in real danger of not receiving their grades this summer.



UCEA has approached the arbitration service ACAS requesting talks without pre-conditions. AUT and Natfhe have confirmed that both unions will attend the talks tomorrow (Tuesday 23 May).



AUT remains committed to resolving the dispute as swiftly as possible and approaches these talks positively.



AUT general secretary, Sally Hunt, said: 'We hope that the offer of talks without pre-conditions indicates that the employers share our desire to bring about a swift resolution to the dispute. We have hit a critical stage of the year now and it is in everyone’s interests to get things resolved as quickly as possible.



'This is a golden opportunity to bring an end to what has the potential to be an incredibly damaging dispute. The encouraging noises from the employers suggest that they are as keen as us to sit down and thrash this out. Students do not deserve any additional stress at this difficult time of the year. Now is the time for resolution.'

I would also like to point out here that I certainly work longer hours than are written into my contract. I frequently have students in my office (outside of lecture hours) for tutorials and unofficial pop-in sessions. We run laboratory classes where I and other senior members of staff are present throughout - around 8 - 10 hrs a week, and Maths workshops - 4 hrs a week. I don't believe I am an exception at my university - I can't comment on any other Uni though!

On top of this it takes about an hour or two (at least) to prepare each individual lecture! And another 3 hrs a week is just admin and paper work

In our department the money that we attract into the university is a combination of teaching and research and so both are vitally important.

Voyager2002

jr666 wrote:

might i remind you that without us 'distractions' you wouldn't even have a job, you too were once a 'distraction'.

I'm sorry but i supported the lecturers up until they rejected the 12.8%, asking for more on top of that is not only selfish but is only going to anger the people very people your job depends on, students.

If you'd rather be doing research all the time then there are plenty of research positions availiable in 'industry' where you will never have to deal with us 'distractions' again.

Not quite true. At my university (Exeter) we used to have departments of Music and Chemistry that were internationally renowned for the high quality of their teaching. The problem was, the lecturers concentrated on teaching and did not have time to do much research. And it is research that brings in the money: teaching is a loss-leader (even with the higher tuition fees and extra public money that each student brings). So those departments were axed. The message is clear: lecturers who do not do enough research are the ones who end up without jobs.

And no, lecturers' jobs do not depend on students.

How much should a lecturer be paid? I don't know, but when you remember that becoming a lecturer takes eight years of study (plus three or four in temporary employment) it is clear that something more than a trainee accountant would be appropriate. Otherwise it will be impossible for new lecturers to service their student loans, buy a place to live, and generally lead acceptable lives. And if that happens there will not be many new lecturers in the future, which would not be in anyone's interest.

Research jobs in industry? Yes if your research is designing more efficient engines; no if you are working to understand how cancer attacks its victims (a necessary first step before designing new therapies). And as for cushy lives, it is the researchers in industry who have a really easy time.

Voyager2002

I find it rather sad that all the students here are worried about assessment procedures. When I went to university I did so in order to learn: the piece of paper at the end was a bonus, important but not the main point. Now the AUT has been to enormous trouble to protect student learning -- assessment can take place later, or not at all -- but all that people are worried about is getting the piece of paper at the end. Most disturbing of all are those people who say that all their dissertation work has been wasted, just because it has not been marked. Wrong: if the dissertation is that wonderful, then publish it. And in any case, the point of doing a dissertation is to learn how to research a topic and present your findings, and if that was done then the main objective has been achieved.

chocshake

That piece of paper is what will get us a graduate job though, the reason that I went to university. Then we can start clearing all our student debts and get on with lives and careers. With all due respect, it's not just a 'piece of paper'. I've given up alot to further my education and I'm gutted that even after I've done all this work I will not be able to get the benefit from it, I'm so sorry if that's selfish but university isn't cheep and like many students my parents can't afford to pay for everything so I have been working under the presumtion that I will be able to get a decent entry level job at the end of my degree, but at the moment it looks like its back to the temp agency to make ends meet whilst my lifes in limbo waiting on my results. No employer wants to know in my chosen degree area if you don't have a 2.1 so my results are the be all and all as far as university is concerned.

linzibean

Voyager2002 wrote:

I find it rather sad that all the students here are worried about assessment procedures. When I went to university I did so in order to learn: the piece of paper at the end was a bonus, important but not the main point.

Learning how to do dissertations or essays is ONE point of university, however, it won't get you a good job. Without a proper degree (my university is threatening to do "unfinished" degree certificates -whats the point?) potential employers will see you as inferior to othe graudates, making you less viable in the market.

hanspam

Fair enough, we've all learnt a lot while we're at uni, but the important thing to remember is (as has been pointed out above) we have no documented proof of how well we've done this without our degrees. As far as I can tell, Lancaster's proposing to issue unclassified provisional degrees - if someone hasn't already been offered a graduate job and applies for one, with only an unclassified degree, most employers wouldn't look twice at them.

The Law Society is refusing to admit students wishing to take the LPC this year if they don't have completed, classified degrees, as they wish to 'keep their standards high', or other such nonsense. One of my lecturers was v shocked at this, for the purely mercenary reason that she couldn't believe they'd risk losing so many students' potential fees in one year. So, 2 of my friends who have already paid deposits for the course, and signed contracts for accommodation next year, face potentially having to put off their course for a year.

I'm lucky in a way - even though I won't get my 'real' degree on time, the postgraduate course I've applied for has said they'll accept students who have already received marks for 3 of the professional exemption courses, and I have all 7 already.

In short, we appreciate there is more to education than assessment procedures, but as things stand, the assessment procedures go a long way toward dictating what happens once we graduate!