Consumer Credit Act on Deposit on Credit & Debit Cards

femme*fatale_2

Hi

I'd be very grateful for some advice.

I placed a deposit on two gold rings in January 2007. £1,270 was paid using my Nationwide current account debit card, and £130 was paid on my Nationwide Visa credit card, leaving a total of £5,478 to pay.

I did not sign a credit agreement for the rings. The jeweller is based in South Wales and I'm in Surrey. It was informally agreed over the telephone that the balance would be paid upon collection. No timeframe was discussed.

Shortly afterwards I was made redundant and since then I have not been in a position to pay the balance. The company has kept the rings on hold for me in the meantime, and the first contact I have had with them since paying the deposit was when they wrote to me this summer (i.e., over 2 years later) asking when the remaining payment was going to be made.

I telephoned them immediately to explain my situation and said that if they were unable to hold the rings any longer and intended to sell them to someone else, I would like my deposit refunded. I explained that this was not my preference, as I still wanted to complete the purchase, but given my circumstances I was unable to pay in full at the current time and I understood that they may not be able to wait.

The manager I spoke to was very understanding but said that it was not their company policy to refund deposits and that the money would have to be used to fund an alternative purchase if I was unable to complete the purchase of the rings. I said that I felt this was unfair, given the amount of money involved, as although I appreciated they had kept them on hold for me for some time there had been no official agreement between us and I did not want to be forced into purchasing something else I did not want, when such a large amount was involved.

Eventually, it was agreed that we would try and work together to find a better solution, perhaps agreeing some kind of informal repayment plan by instalment. We agreed that we would talk again in a month or so.

Today I have received a second letter from them. There is no reference to the possibility of a repayment plan. It states that the rings are going to be returned to stock to resell, and that as a good gesture they will allow me to buy goods up to the value of £1,400 before the end of December 2009.

I telephoned them immediately and made it clear that I was very unhappy with this, especially given our previous discussion. They repeated their line about 'company policy', and the manager told me that this is what the area manager had decided.

I said that if they were going to resell the goods to someone else they had no right to keep my deposit money, and that regardless of their company policy, I still had rights as a consumer. If they are going to resell the goods they have no legitimate reason for keeping my money. They should either refund it (after the goods have been resold, if they prefer that), or work with me to agree an instalment plan as previously discussed. It is not as though there was any formal credit agreement between us, whereby the final payment had to be made by an agreed date. So although I appreciate they have held onto them for me for a long time, that is their choice and does not affect my rights. If they had wanted payment sooner they could have contacted me at any point.

The situation at the moment is that the area manager is away on holiday and not back until later this month. In the meantime the manager has agreed to hold the rings for me to ensure that they are not sold, and is going to ring me once she has discussed the situation with him.

Any advice as to my rights in this situation would be very much appreciated - both with regard to how I handle the situation with the jeweller, and with claiming the money back from the Nationwide if necessary. The larger amount was paid for by debit card, rather than credit card which I know has more protection. However, in the past Nationwide have been very good at getting my money back with disputes involving eBay and PayPal purchases, even when I have paid by debit card, so I am optimistic they would help with this.

With regard to the jeweller, do they have any legal right to keep the money in the event that they refuse to work together and complete the sale by instalment? Can they legally force me to choose other goods and set a timeframe (end of December) in this way?

Sorry to ask so many questions.

Thanks so much, Mel

lisyloo

I would be interested to read other replies, but I don't believe the CCA offers you any protection for redundancy or changing your mind about a purchase.

Sorry.

femme*fatale_2

Thanks.

Surely a company cannot just take your money and then keep that money even though they still have the goods and are going to sell them?

If there were a formal agreement that I had defaulted on with specific repayment terms and conditions I could understand that it would be different, but there is no agreement other than I paid a deposit. No timeframe was ever agreed and there was no instalment plan.

Surely they have to either work with me, or if they want to resell the goods, give me money back. They can't have it both ways and keep both the money and the goods surely.

lisyloo

They didn't "take" your money. You gave it to them.

Here is what you said in the first post

It was informally agreed over the telephone that the balance would be paid upon collection.

So you did agree to buy the items, formally or not.
You giving them £1300 an not reporting it as fraud is very solid evidence in their favour that you agreed to buy the items.

I'm afraid I can't answer your question on deposits right now.
But you need to be researching the law on deposits and not CCA.
The retailer is not liable here as they have done nothing wrong (item is not faulty or unavailable).
So the question refers to how much deposit are they legally entitled to keep.

ILW

Seems to me a contract was made at the time of purchase.
The OP then broke the contract.
Would have thought the seller had a perfect right to keep the deposit.

izools

lisyloo wrote: »

They didn't "take" your money. You gave it to them.

Here is what you said in the first post



So you did agree to buy the items, formally or not.
You giving them £1300 an not reporting it as fraud is very solid evidence in their favour that you agreed to buy the items.

I'm afraid I can't answer your question on deposits right now.
But you need to be researching the law on deposits and not CCA.
The retailer is not liable here as they have done nothing wrong (item is not faulty or unavailable).
So the question refers to how much deposit are they legally entitled to keep.

And I suppose they could also argue that when the items were reserved 2 years ago their resale value was significantly higher than now, in the recession, and as such they have lost out; maybe?

femme*fatale_2

I am not disputing that I agreed to buy the goods. I should also have mentioned that when they 'took' the deposit payment (as in processed it to my card, accepted payment, clearly not took the money fraudulently), the rings were not available there and then. I had to wait for them to be supplied by the gold mine in Wales. I cannot remember when they arrived but it was some months later, so they have not been waiting for payment the whole time. Also, just to be clear, they were not made especially for me. The company was expecting them anyway, they just put my name against them.

I still want to buy them and have no intention of trying to get out of the sale, I just cannot pay the large outstanding balance immediately and want to come to some agreement with them as regards an instalment repayment plan, to which they were previously amenable when we spoke over the phone.

As regards the value of the goods, the rings are Welsh gold so regardless of the recession the value has actually increased significantly since I paid the deposit and they will be able to sell them at a higher price.

Other than going to a solicitor, and obviously parting with money I don't have, I don't know where I can find specific advice about how I stand.

ILW

femme*fatale wrote: »

I am not disputing that I agreed to buy the goods. I should also have mentioned that when they 'took' the deposit payment (as in processed it to my card, accepted payment, clearly not took the money fraudulently), the rings were not available there and then. I had to wait for them to be supplied by the gold mine in Wales. I cannot remember when they arrived but it was some months later, so they have not been waiting for payment the whole time. Also, just to be clear, they were not made especially for me. The company was expecting them anyway, they just put my name against them.

I still want to buy them and have no intention of trying to get out of the sale, I just cannot pay the large outstanding balance immediately and want to come to some agreement with them as regards an instalment repayment plan, to which they were previously amenable when we spoke over the phone.

As regards the value of the goods, the rings are Welsh gold so regardless of the recession the value has actually increased significantly since I paid the deposit and they will be able to sell them at a higher price.

Other than going to a solicitor, and obviously parting with money I don't have, I don't know where I can find specific advice about how I stand.

That means very little with jewellery.
I believe the current buy price on gold (on the high street) is about £19.00 per gram for 24ct and as little as £6.00 per gram for 9ct.

lisyloo

I said that if they were going to resell the goods to someone else they had no right to keep my deposit money, and that regardless of their company policy, I still had rights as a consumer. If they are going to resell the goods they have no legitimate reason for keeping my money.

The jeweller is entitled to compensation for you pulling out of the deal.

This could consist of
1) any reducation they have to appy to the price in order to sell the items. There are trends and fashion in jewelry so these items may be less desirerable, but even more important there is a credit crunch on so they may have to discount them substantially to sell.
2) Any additional insurance costs they have incurred.
3) Loss of interest on your money for 2 years.
Not a conclusive list, but jsut things I've thought of.

the value has actually increased significantly since I paid the deposit and they will be able to sell them at a higher price.

I find that very hard to believe in a recession.
People are not going out and spending on luxury items at the moment.
Retailers are having to discount left right and center to get custom.
Unemployment is rising and those in work face pay cuts and fear of losing their jobs.

Other than going to a solicitor, and obviously parting with money I don't have, I don't know where I can find specific advice about how I stand.

They are entitled to compensation from you breaking the deal.
The argument is then, how much?
You obviously think £1300 is too much, but how would you back that up?
I think that they aws a professional jeweler could back up their case better than you because they have access to jewelry sales data and could edit that to their requirements. What data do you have to argue against THEIR costs for insurance, storage, returns, sales etc.

Do you have any free legal advice on your home insurance?
This is the sort of thing you can ask them about.

But I have to say given the current climate I don't think they'd have any trouble demonstrating their costs to the tune of £1300.

femme*fatale_2

As I am still prepared to pay for the goods, and they have previously verbally agreed in principle to a repayment plan, could you explain how I am backing out of the deal. Backing out would surely mean that I am refusing to pay for them, or if there were already a formal instalment arrangement, not keeping up the payments as agreed. The point is that I still want and intend to pay for them, but that I need to pay by instalment, as agreed in principle verbally by telephone the first time they made contact with me to discuss the remaining payment.

It is my understanding that the price of gold has reached previously uknown levels over the last two years. Obviously I am not a gold expert, but this is the information that is being passed on by the media and there are even TV adverts encouraging people to trade in on that basis.

femme*fatale_2

Forgot to mention that as the gold is also Welsh gold, i.e., from a mine that is no longer open, its value is even higher. If that's not the case someone better warn HRH Elizabeth II - I believe they've had bars made of it to ensure future generations of our illustrious Royal Family have their wedding rings made of it!

My rings are also plain wedding rbands, i.e., there will always be a market for them, they do not date as fashion jewellery does.