Tory cuts could be mighty unpleasant

StevieJ

I view all administrations in the US as similar to Tory, with the possible exception of this one.
BTW I view a change of govt in the UK a healthy means of tempering the excesses of the
previous administration.

Generali

StevieJ wrote: »

I view all administrations in the US as similar to Tory, with the possible exception of this one.

It's funny, they are generally far more Liberal (free market) economically than UK parties but much more Authoritarian despite ruling using a constitution that would on the face of it encourage or even demand Libertarianism.

i8change

Originally Posted by Sir Humphrey
A few selective quotes from Mein Kampf do not make Hitler a socialist. Anyone who knows anything about Hitler knows that he hated Commies as much as he hated Jews.

Mein Kampf is full of Hitlers arguments against Marxism and the quotes are not selective as the book is riddled with similar, seemingly left-wing, thoughts.
On a sliding scale between Marxism and Free Market Capitalism his economics sound quite far to the left of centre and that was a surprise to me having previously understood him to be very right-wing.
Whether this rhetoric was to build a following with the masses or genuinely felt is a matter of debate.
I don't feel the murderous dictator element is a particularly right-wing indicator as historically the same has been done by the, supposedly, left-wing.
He obviously defines, and thus taints, National Socialism rather than Socialism, but that is a pity. It would have been interesting to see how a form of National Socialism without the hatred and with less extreem nationalism, fared economically in the longer term. Especially if the experiment was carried out abroad. :rolleyes:

Generali

Sir_Humphrey wrote: »

Agreed. A few selective quotes from Mein Kampf do not make Hitler a socialist. Anyone who knows anything about Hitler knows that he hated Commies as much as he hated Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Germany#The_Nazi_era

Stalin was a notorious anti-Semite, for example he was reputed to have said, "Any Jew is a potential spy".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin%27s_antisemitism

The night of August 12-13, 1952, in the event known as the Night of the Murdered Poets (Ночь казнённых поэтов), thirteen of the most prominent Yiddish writers of the Soviet Union were executed on the orders of Stalin. Among the victims were Peretz Markish, David Bergelson and Itzik Fefer.

Having said that, I believe that Kruschev's wife was Jewish (as was Lenin???).

StevieJ

mbga9pgf wrote: »

Better ask the Labour party. They were one of the parties that supported his tenature, despite killing twice as many people than hitler ever did.

Socialism is evil.

Lenin did know a lot about history do you?

robin_banks

To me politics isn't a sliding scale of left right but more of a grid, left-right, authoritarian/libetarion.

Since the 1970's we have moved increasingly to the right authoritarian.

kennyboy66_2

Generali wrote: »

I don't agree that there's a parallel between the Tory and Labour parties in the US. For example a Republican from New York is likely to be somewhat to the left of a Democrat from Texas, a similar geographical difference doesn't exist in the UK.

USA politics historically divided along grounds of race (Black / White / Hispanic blocks), North / South, and religion (Jewish democats, Catholic democrats etc, etc), so parallels are hard to compare exactly with the UK.

However, if you go back long enough (1960's) there were plenty of places were politics were completely different. Liverpool for example had a Conservative council and MP's.

As example Tim Fortescue was MP for Garston, Liverpool 1966 -1974, the West Derby constituency was Conservative until 1964. The Wavertreet constituency (Anthony Steen of recent expenses scandal was the last !) was Tory from 1935 - 1983

This is just my lifetime - go back further and you will find that before WW2 that both East & West Toxteth (Liverpool 8 to anyone from the city) consituencies were both Tory.

Sadly, the background for this was that votes split along religion (Tory Protestant and Labour Catholic) and to a lesser extent race.

There were even Conservative clubs in the heart of Toxteth.

I just thing that UK politics & the economy changed radically somewhat earlier than the USA (who afterall still had segregation not that long ago).

Generali wrote: »

Bill Clinton for example was a pretty successful and very popular Democratic President from the Centre of the party. He was a fiscal conservative (he balanced the budget), extended the range of the death penalty to include crimes that did not directly result in the death of another (eg running a drug gang) and was a firm believer in free trade (eg NAFTA). None of those are policies that would normally be ascribed to the Labour Party in the UK.

Apart from the death penalty bit (which surely is a bit of an oddity in the 'civilised' west) then you could make a direct comparison with Tony Blair, in the first 8 years of his PM'ship. Despite the rhetoric that comes out of the US, in terms of behaviour the UK is more free trade than the USA, difficult to argue how Labour have been against free trade in the last 12 years.

Sir_Humphrey

Generali wrote: »

Stalin was a notorious anti-Semite, for example he was reputed to have said, "Any Jew is a potential spy".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin%27s_antisemitism

Stalin also suppressed trade unions and had many prominent left-wing figures murdered.

You could therefore equally argue that Stalin was in fact a far right-winger rather Hitler being a leftie.

You need to be VERY careful with these sorts of revisionist arguments Generali.

Generali

kennyboy66 wrote: »

USA politics historically divided along grounds of race (Black / White / Hispanic blocks), North / South, and religion (Jewish democats, Catholic democrats etc, etc), so parallels are hard to compare exactly with the UK.

However, if you go back long enough (1960's) there were plenty of places were politics were completely different. Liverpool for example had a Conservative council and MP's.

As example Tim Fortescue was MP for Garston, Liverpool 1966 -1974, the West Derby constituency was Conservative until 1964. The Wavertreet constituency (Anthony Steen of recent expenses scandal was the last !) was Tory from 1935 - 1983

This is just my lifetime - go back further and you will find that before WW2 that both East & West Toxteth (Liverpool 8 to anyone from the city) consituencies were both Tory.

Sadly, the background for this was that votes split along religion (Tory Protestant and Labour Catholic) and to a lesser extent race.

There were even Conservative clubs in the heart of Toxteth.

I just thing that UK politics & the economy changed radically somewhat earlier than the USA (who afterall still had segregation not that long ago).

Fascinating, thanks. I know very, very little about English sectarianism.

kennyboy66_2

Generali wrote: »

Stalin was a notorious anti-Semite, for example he was reputed to have said, "Any Jew is a potential spy".


Having said that, I believe that Kruschev's wife was Jewish (as was Lenin???).

You could almost substitute Stalin for Richard Nixon when it comes to anti-semite rantings, although Nixon kept his mad killing plans to SE Asia, which had to be tempered by Henry Kissinger (of all people).