Ireland vote 'YES' on Lisbon Treaty Referendum.

Sir_Humphrey

Generali wrote: »

The only trouble is that whereas fox hunting is basically a one off - once it gets made illegal then that's pretty likely to be that - the EU isn't, largely because the agenda is a moving one: single market for goods, single market for labour, single currency, single legal code, single primary legislature. At each stage you get to pick up more people against the next move.

You could also say the same about Globalisation. No-one voted for that either. I think opposition to the EU is based on the same emotional impulse.

Protectionism is a very populist policy and as such tends to be popular.

I know you are arguing from a pro-stance like me BTW.

Generali

Sir_Humphrey wrote: »

I know you are arguing from a pro-stance like me BTW.

I am arguing from a pro stance. I am starting to think that, unlike fox hunting, enough people care about the issues surrounding EU in the UK to scupper plans for a 'United States of Europe' (or whatever it would be called), although clearly not enough to bother about finding out about the EU and how it works otherwise they wouldn't be so anti!

I agree with your emotion idea too (and hadn't really thought about it in those terms) but TBH that may strengthen resolve against further 'integration'.

The EU is a very imperfect institution, just like Westminster, County Councils, Parish Councils and all the rest. The EU could be much improved (IMO) with a really good constitution. The problem is this isn't it. The other problem is that European people increasingly don't like the EU as much as their politicians do (again IMO).

Hey, with my political views, I'm used to losing the argument!

Heyman_2

kennyboy66 wrote: »

Or the alternate view is that the Irish have looked into the financial abyss and thought that they are probably better off in the EU than being out of it like, ooh lets say Iceland.

Unemployment heading towards 500,000 probably concentrates the mind wonderfully.

Heh, if Sinn Fein and the Catholic church were voting no, it would be enough for me to vote Yes.

No. The nation returned a 'No' the first time around and that should have been it. The whys and wherefores of economy and all the rest of it don't mean anything.

The whole thing is farcical. Doing a referendum and then just basically doing ANOTHER one because they didn't like the result of the first one.

Gordon and the Tory Boy are terrified of going to the country because they know full well what the answer will be, so they make the decision for us because 'that's what parliament is for'.

And they wonder why people vote for parties like the BNP. :mad:

Thrugelmir

adouglasmhor wrote: »

Brown became PM the same way as Major did. I am sure you don't need a description from me as to how representative democracy with a party system works.

No I don't thanks. My point wasn't political. The real issue is that there is disconnect between the governing classes and the electorate. An elitism.
In a way a dishonesty. As party manifestos mean little.

leveller2911

I think most EU supporters on here have ALL failed to address the complete lack of "DEMOCRACY" .
Its all very well to say the EU isn't perfect and can be made to work a lot better and be made more accountable to the voters but !!!!!! this has been going on for years.

If my business owed thousands to the banks and I went cap in hand for a loan they would tell be to go away ,work hard and clear my debts and they,d be happy to lend me more, BUT Brussels is awash with fraud ,quango,s and waste and yet they keep taking more without changing the way in which it acts......

I ask any of you EU supporters to justify the fact that the Auditors have refused to sign off the EU accounts as being correct for the last 11 years...................You can spend hours giving views on what Brussels have done for us but the fact is its corrupt and NOT democratic..Go back 10-15 years and the EU said they had "NO intention of having a president and also NO intention of having an EU army(they can call it what they like,it still amounts to an army), again they have lied they are going to have both, yes there will still be NATO ,so we will be expected to contribute...

Its all very well for some on here saying how we "need to be in the EU " I would say that given the FACT that WE are one of only two net contributers the EU needs us as much if not more...I say pull our money out , be friends and trade with the EU but be independant.

leveller2911

leveller2911 wrote: »

I think most EU supporters on here have ALL failed to address the complete lack of "DEMOCRACY" .
Its all very well to say the EU isn't perfect and can be made to work a lot better and be made more accountable to the voters but !!!!!! this has been going on for years.

If my business owed thousands to the banks and I went cap in hand for a loan they would tell be to go away ,work hard and clear my debts and they,d be happy to lend me more, BUT Brussels is awash with fraud ,quango,s and waste and yet they keep taking more without changing the way in which it acts......

I ask any of you EU supporters to justify the fact that the Auditors have refused to sign off the EU accounts as being correct for the last 11 years...................You can spend hours giving views on what Brussels have done for us but the fact is its corrupt and NOT democratic..Go back 10-15 years and the EU said they had "NO intention of having a president and also NO intention of having an EU army(they can call it what they like,it still amounts to an army), again they have lied they are going to have both, yes there will still be NATO ,so we will be expected to contribute...

Its all very well for some on here saying how we "need to be in the EU " I would say that given the FACT that WE are one of only two net contributers the EU needs us as much if not more...I say pull our money out , be friends and trade with the EU but be independant.

Finally,im not normally one for taking much notice of polls but NORWAY was voted as the best country in the world to live in (quality of life).Wonder if it has anything to do with the fact its NOT a member of the EU

I must remember not to quote myself........;)

matthewcb

I really don't understand the Irish.

Not ONE SINGLE word of the treaty was changed - a treaty they rejected last year. Then suddenly vague promises of piles of cash and they accept it?

Are the people of Ireland that naive? Now the EU has the 'yes' vote, they will move onto the Czechs and Poles and Ireland will no longer be a concern. Do they really think the EU will bail them out?

All those years objecting to British rule and now they're going to be led by an ex-British PM. Unbelievable...

Thrugelmir

matthewcb wrote: »

I really don't understand the Irish.

If you were once employed by Dell in Limerick, (and now along with 10,000 other people and a decimated local economy). Look around you. What hope would you have?

Would you be bothered about who was going to be European President?

At the moment its self preservation for oneself and family.

Sir_Humphrey

matthewcb wrote: »

I really don't understand the Irish.

Not ONE SINGLE word of the treaty was changed - a treaty they rejected last year. Then suddenly vague promises of piles of cash and they accept it?

The reason is that two years ago their Anglo-Saxon economic model was not screwed.

In the same way the Tories will have to be more pro-European because our Anglo-Saxon economic model is also screwed. Nice little dilemma for Mr Cameron. Welcome to the real world of governing. :beer:

JayScottGreenspan

Presumably it will be ratified by the time the Tories get in, so pulling out of the Treaty would basically be like pulling out of Europe.

What I would do is get the clever-lawyer-people to scutinise the Treaty very carefully. Anything you don't like you simply find a way of reading it differently, then have a referendum on legislation codifying the UK interpretation of the text.

This should have been done years ago on the Convention on Human Rights. Just one example:
"Article 2 – Right to life
Everyone's right to life shall be protected by law."
Sensible interpretation: don't kill people.
Stupid interpretation: you can't deport criminals to dangerous countries.

The EU is not an environment conducive to well worded clauses. It all needs clarifying, though not necessarily changing.