HELP! Council won't believe me about occupancy - what to do?

mark567

Hi All,

I bought a house to renovate it by myself, and have been living in it through the summer months (there's no heating), but staying at my girlfriend's place in the winter. Now the council have told me that I've not occupied the property, and are demanding bills to prove I was there. I've managed to find an electric bill covering part of the period in question, and it was 90 units for 3 months in the summer, but they are saying this only shows minimal usage, so is not enough. After suffering the inconvenience of staying over in the property for 6 months I'm absolutely furious that they don't believe me, and I wondered if they are 'all powerful' in this respect or do I have some chance of fighting them? I don't care how much it costs, as I don't like being called a liar. I get on well with both neighbours so at least they are on my side, they were asked whether I was there by an inpector, but they said I wasn't because they hadn't seen me (I cycle to work so they wouldn't see a car), didn't know I needed to 'check in' with them. Afterwards they admitted that they wouldn't really know either way.

I suspect I may be able to dig up the internet access logs if it came to it, but at the moment it seems every piece of information I provide the council tax benefits people they want something more, and they have already changed their story several times, for instance first they asked for proof of occupancy during 6 months of summer, now they are asking for proof of non-occupancy in the winter as well.

Many thanks for any advice on this one.

Mark.

SplanK

what is the main purpose of this - surley it would work in your favor if they think you have not been living there by a reduction in your council tax?

pie81

yes, why do the council need to know you were there?

suavekc

Did you inform the council that you would be renovating the property and that it would be vacant?

Usually you have to give the council a date of when you would be moving into it or how long it would be vacant/renovations being carrried out.

Whilst renovating and if the house is vacant you don't pay any council tax. Once you have moved in you will get some sort of discount. If living on your own, was 25%, think it's now only 10% discount.

I suppose the council are just trying to find out dates of when you were in and out of the property to see if any outstanding monies are owed??

mark567

Sorry to not make things clear, I've already used up the 12 month renovation 'allowance' but since I work full time things have not progressed quickly. So the only thing I can can now do is ensure the property is occupied for 6 months of every year. While I'm there I can get 25% single-person's discount, while I'm not I can get 6 months of every year refunded. On the other hand, if I don't occupy the property I have to pay the full amount, so I lose the 25% discount. This was news to me - I had assumed you never need to pay more for having a property unoccupied rather than occupied. We are not talking about thousands of pounds here, probably just a few hundred, but it's money I don't want to pay, especially as I have changed my occupancy pattern at some inconvenience to myself and I'm now being called a liar.

Many thanks for the responses so far, I really appreciate it.

pie81

I see. Yes that makes sense, I can see that they would want to discourage totally unoccupied properties as that contributes to housing shortage, run down area etc.

Got to be honest I can't really think of anything more you can do. water meter records perhaps? gas?

mark567

pie81 wrote: »

Got to be honest I can't really think of anything more you can do. water meter records perhaps? gas?

Water is not on a meter, and gas is not connected :-(.

The only thing left is internet, but the logs are not readily available, and I've no idea what I have to go through to get them from Virgin, or even if they will be sufficient. It was a bit of a blow that they rejected the electricity bill, because I thought that was enough.

I'm really annoyed that they appear to have the power to arbitrarily decide what constitutes 'reasonable' electricity use, and then use that to screw money from me. Even the electricity company admitted that 90 units was low, but a believable amount of electricity for someone to use for 3 months in the summer - we are talking about an energy saving bulb and a laptop most evenings, as I didn't expect to have to throw electricity away just to prove something to the council.

I'm wondering if I need to get a solicitor to argue my case, or if there is some kind of appeals process to go through about this.

Presumably this is all up to me to prove, since this is considered a 'benefit', or do they have to prove I wasn't there?

thanks,
Mark.

RAS

try talking to the local councilllor. They may be able to get someone to talk sense?

Fire_Fox

mark567 wrote: »

Sorry to not make things clear, I've already used up the 12 month renovation 'allowance' but since I work full time things have not progressed quickly. So the only thing I can can now do is ensure the property is occupied for 6 months of every year. While I'm there I can get 25% single-person's discount, while I'm not I can get 6 months of every year refunded. On the other hand, if I don't occupy the property I have to pay the full amount, so I lose the 25% discount. This was news to me - I had assumed you never need to pay more for having a property unoccupied rather than occupied. We are not talking about thousands of pounds here, probably just a few hundred, but it's money I don't want to pay, especially as I have changed my occupancy pattern at some inconvenience to myself and I'm now being called a liar.

Many thanks for the responses so far, I really appreciate it.

You can only claim complete exemption if the property is empty - no furniture - not simply that it is unoccupied in the winter. Are you saying you move the majority of your belongings (including furniture) into the property in the spring, and then the majority of your belongings out in the autumn? This seems a bit unlikely so I can see the council's POV, tho I am not disputing your version of events.

Do you have landline or internet bills covering the period in question? Can't you get copies of the utility bills? Where is your post (bank statements etc.) being delivered? Where are you registered to vote? Are you being added to your girlfriend's council tax bill in winter and being removed every summer?

CIS

We see a few of these in my office - the local authority has a duty to ensure its council tax is collected correctly and the area regarding Class C exemptions (unoccupied and unfurnished) is a dodgy one as we have L/L's claim that a person has occupied for 6 weeks in order that the Class C can be reclaimed or that the property is occupied so that they get a 25% discount instead of a 0% or 10% discount.

You can only claim complete exemption if the property is empty - no furniture - not simply that it is unoccupied in the winter. Are you saying you move the majority of your belongings (including furniture) into the property in the spring, and then the majority of your belongings out in the autumn? This seems a bit unlikely so I can see the council's POV, tho I am not disputing your version of events.

It does make an unlikely story when you deal with every day people who are trying to fiddle the system but unfortunately you do get very cynical and the people who are actually being honest get caught up in it all.

I'm wondering if I need to get a solicitor to argue my case, or if there is some kind of appeals process to go through about this.

You would need go through the council's process first and then , if your still in dispute, apply to a Valuation Tribunal.

mark567

Fire_Fox wrote: »

You can only claim complete exemption if the property is empty - no furniture - not simply that it is unoccupied in the winter. Are you saying you move the majority of your belongings (including furniture) into the property in the spring, and then the majority of your belongings out in the autumn? This seems a bit unlikely so I can see the council's POV, tho I am not disputing your version of events.

Do you have landline or internet bills covering the period in question? Can't you get copies of the utility bills? Where is your post (bank statements etc.) being delivered? Where are you registered to vote? Are you being added to your girlfriend's council tax bill in winter and being removed every summer?

I'm fully aware of the situation with the furniture, and there is very little to move, so this is no problem. I think what we are seeing here is me being persecuted, just because I'm a bit 'weird' and nobody else would do this. It's a bit like people who don't have a TV, and therefore don't pay TV license - they are automatically assumed to be guilty simply because they're doing something out of the ordinary.

Oddly enough, the neighbours would probably have said anything I told them to say to the inspector, but I didn't think it necessary to 'brief' them because I was following the law to the letter and occupying the property on the precise dates I told the council I would be. This means, in my opinion spending at least 4 nights/week in the property during the given period. I was often not around at week-ends but I believe it's totally legal to not be in your home at the w/e!

It's interesting that you mention my G/Fs situation. She's getting screwed over this as well, because due to me being in the other place, she also then gets a 25% discount on her place. We have been scrupulously honest about the periods I've been occupying her place, and presumably the council will eventually catch up with her and reclaim her 25% discount if I can't claim this, further complicating the situation. I can see why they don't want to believe me in this case, it's all about money and they probably get some bonus for collecting more of it. This is the only reason I can find to explain their actions.

Internet bills do not include usage figures - it's a flat rate, so that's useless. It was connected for the period in question, but I don't get paper bills any more, so not sure if that's going to be useful. Perhaps I could give some printouts of that. Actually that's a good idea, I will try that, although they seem to want to reject every new piece of evidence I come up with.

I have to admit I am probably registered at G/Fs place to vote, and maybe that's my only mistake. Not a mistake I'll make next year if I'm still in this situation though!

Mark.