Question on creditor/DCA chasing joint account debt after BR...

Captain_Longbeard

Morning all, hope everyone is well. Wonder if anyone on here can help me. As some of you know, I went BR in March (Can't believe it's been 6 months already!).

This may not be the right forum for this, but I know this is THE forum where there is the most experience of creditors chasing you etc. Apologies if this is a long read, but I want to provide as much info as I can...

Here goes....

Part of my BR included a joint account overdraft, which we knew the creditor would go after my other half for the balance. My OH was fully ready to engage with them to negotiate repayment terms etc, however without warning, my OH received a letter from Moorcroft demanding immediate repayment.

Prior to this, I had spoken to the creditor (RBS by the way), and informed them of my BR, and that my OH was ready to talk to them to arrange repayment. The guy on the other end of the phone said we would hear from them to arrange. Then the Moorcroft "Pre Court Division" letter arrived addressed to my OH demanding payment in 7 days otherwise they would instruct solicitors etc... (Standard Moorcroft letters after having done a bit of research around this site :-) )

This naturally upset my other half, and when my OH phoned Moorcroft to find out what was going on, "bully-boy" tactics were employed by them, and they were menacing and unprofessional. Luckily we record all our calls, so have this on record.

Now, using the letter templates on this site, we decided to firstly challenge Moorcroft to prove they were entitled to collect the debt by providing a copy of the CCA and copy of the deed of assignment. We provided a £1 postal order payable to Moorcroft.

They responded a few days later saying they have passed the query onto RBS who will respond.

RBS did respond, saying that they are unable to action the query without their reference or account number (we supplied the Moorcroft reference number in the correspondence, and thats all that Moorcroft supplied) and asking my OH to sign the letter on return. They also sent the PO back (which was payable to Moorcroft so not sure why Moorcroft sent it to RBS)

This was a bit concerning, as it read to us that Moorcroft were demanding money for something that RBS could not marry up on their side!

So we wrote to Moorcroft asking them to explain why RBS could not find any details relating to the reference number provided, and asked them to once again provide the CCA agreement and proof of the deed of assignment. We also asked them to clarify why, if they now hold the debt, that the original creditor is contacting me directly. We also reminded them of the timelines for compliance on delivering the CCA.

They responded with the exact same letter as their first response (must be an autoresponder template) saying they have forwarded the request onto the client who would respond.

RBS did respond, again, with the identical letter as their first response, saying that they are unable to action the query without their reference number (we supplied the Moorcroft reference again in our follow up letter) and asking my OH to sign the letter on return. They also once again sent the PO back...

So it's now been a month since Moorcroft first contacted us, and I would like any help and advice from anyone on here with regards to the following;

1. In the correspondence to Moorcroft, we provided their reference number. Should this be enough to obtain a copy of the CCA for the debt they are referring to and we shouldn't have to provide any further information to Moorcroft in order to obtain this? Moorcroft and RBS should be able to marry up the information for this debt they are chasing?

2. Are RBS allowed to correspond directly with my OH regarding this, even though they have passed this debt over to Moorcroft? I recall reading somewhere that only 1 firm at a time can chase a debt?

3. Do the same CCA rules apply for Overdrafts, and are they now in default of their obligation to supply the requirements in the timeframe?

4. In the correspondence we have sent, we have provided the Moorcroft reference number on everything. Moorcroft have never supplied details of the account number that this refers to. RBS are asking that we supply the account number to them. Are we under any obligation to do this, or do we just need to continue supplying the Moorcroft reference number as per point 1 above?

5. We are thinking of sending a letter similar to that in post #9 here - but any advice or thoughts on how you would proceed would be greatly appreciated.

6. Are we able to demand that we only deal with one or the other of these 2 firms?

Thanks for reading, any and all comments welcomed.

Captain.

miss_spooky

Hi Captain_Longbeard,

I can't offer you much help but I have just had a look at one of my Moorcroft letters and there are two reference numbers on there. The top one is theirs, then there is a client ref underneath which relates to the company they are working for.

Did you put all the references from the letter when you wrote to Moorcroft? YOu could check your RBS paperwork to see if the Morcroft client refs match the RBS refs/acct nos.

It could be that they have your details mixed up with someone else which is why RBS can't match your reference numbers?

Next time you write back to Moorcroft, I would send a copy to RBS with a covering letter and provide all the ref numbers. Suggest that they stop harrassing you and write of the debt unless they are perpared to look into this properly... That should get them going.

Captain_Longbeard

Hi Miss Spooky

Thanks for the reply. you are quite right, there are 2 ref's on the Moorcroft letters, and I did indeed send both on. The 2nd one looks nothing like the account number to which I assume they are referring, but until they can confirm what debt they are talking about, it's difficult to say.

It is worrying that RBS clearly state they cannot match the references to any accounts on their system, and yet it is them who handed over this alleged debt to Moorcroft...

copier_guy

Morning Capt.

I might be wrong but im not sure you can CCA a bank account, think you have to SAR them which costs £10.

Might be worth hunting around to see if im right

miss_spooky

As I mentioned earlier it's notunusual for them to get the number mixed up. My oh had a hp agreement for a car, received the agreement which was on headed paper from company A, then letters started coming in from company B. Same reference number but different name. Wrote to them on several occassions to say that name was incorrect then said don't worry. The acct then was passed to College credit legal services who instructed bailiffs. Bailiffs turn up a my mums house as he was living with us there at the time & we sat down for an hour & half trying to sort this out. When they came we were actually at CAB trying to sort it out so we had to leave there quick.

Turned out that comp a had passed debt to college credit, but details had got mixed up & part of his agreement had ended up at campony b. We had been paying of someone elses car finance so in my oh name there were three HP for the same car!

Can't tell you what I called the solicitor on the phone when the bailiff were there - told her if she couldn't work out that 3 hp's wasn't right then she shouldn't be practising...

All sorted eventually.

The_Watchman_2

My apologies this is rather a rushed reply, but I have had many dealings with Moorcroft.

In all cases they quote a reference for them and a reference for there client, which has always been the account number in question.

Sounds to me as if they have not got that info correct, but RBS are known to do some interesting ‘book keeping’ leading to account numbers being changed.

Naturally this makes it impossible for you to verify the debt is yours.

A copy of the consumer credit agreement for an overdraft is a tricky one, as technically one does not exist, because it does not need to, as it is bundled in the agreement for the account itself.

That’s highly simplified, but is the simplified reasoning.

The rules for overdrafts are therefore different, thus making a request under the consumer credit act virtually pointless.

As for a deed of assignment, it does not sound as if it has been assigned to Moorcroft, as they refer to ‘Our client’, for this reason, all there threats are empty, as they have no legal power whatsoever.

I personally would forget about the CCA request, and concentrate on the fact the account numbers are wrong, any demand MUST CLEARLY identify the debt to the debtor.

This is a valid reason to dispute the claim for repayment, and puts the account (at least with Moorcroft) firmly in dispute.

While in dispute, Moorcroft MUST stops all collection activity, not doing so is a breach of the Office of Fair Trading guidelines, and therefore a breach of the terms of the companies Consumer Credit Licence

fermi

I agree with The Watchman.

The technical CCA side is not worth pursuing too hard, since bank OD's are exempt under CCA 1974 s74 from needing to have a signed and executed agreement.

Instead the creditor must at the time the OD is set up satisfy the conditions in the quote from the OFT below.

1.5 Are all bank overdrafts exempt?

The s74 determination in respect of bank overdrafts (see Q1.4) applies subject to the following conditions:

• the creditor must inform the OFT in writing of his general intention to enter into such agreements;
• the debtor must be informed, at or before the time an agreement is concluded, of the following:

o the credit limit (if any)
o the annual rate of interest and any charges applicable, and the conditions under which these may be varied
o the procedure for terminating the agreement;

• the above information must be confirmed in writing.

Furthermore, where a debtor overdraws a current account with the tacit agreement of the creditor, and the account remains overdrawn for more than three months, the creditor must inform the debtor in writing not later than seven days after the end of that period of the annual rate of interest and any charges applicable.

Concentrate on making them prove and give details of the debt, and make it clear that they should not pursue collection activity while it is disputed.

Is any of the OD penalty charges?

Captain_Longbeard

Hi Fermi and Watchman - thanks both for your replies. Getting them to prove the debt will be my next port of call. The daft thing is, is that before my decision to go BR, me and the other half spent ages working out how we would pay this joint debt, and how we would handle them. We'd been with RBS for over 15 years, and never gone over any agreed overdraft limit, and generally (until things got really bad in the 6 months prior to my BR) cleared it off each month. We were both shocked that it went from being a normal account (into which family allowance etc was paid), to closed and passed to Moorcroft without any notice, and without engaging with the OH first.... and then the first thing the OH got was a stinking "pre litigation" letter

Is any of the OD penalty charges?

sadly not...

Thanks again for the replies.

Captain