Advice requested for Unpaid Fare Notice

CrazyGuy256

Events:
I have been given an IRCAS unpaid fare notice for a South West Trains journey from Exeter St. Davids to London Waterloo. I originally had a ticket for the journey, via honiton and basingstoke, with an unreserved seat departing around 8pm, and costing £7.90 (+£1 booking fee)

Having arrived at the station early, and noticing that my seat was unreserved and that there was an earlier train with available unreserved seats, I took that instead. (departing around 4pm, same day)

I was given an unpaid fare notice for about £50 for the journey, since apparantly my ticket wasn't yet valid.

My Claims:
1. The unpaid fare notice is filled in unclearly. Both the date and time are scribbled out as if the inspector make a mistake and wrote over again the corect date and time.

2. The notice is marked as "No ticket", when in fact I did have a ticket for the journey, just not the seat reservation for the correct train.

3. The ticket inspector has doodled some other information about my home address on the bottom of the form - is this ok?

4. The ticket inspector took my original tickets from me, and refused to allow me to even take a photograph of them. (I still have the collection receipt and online booking confirmation email from thetrainline)

5. The ticket inspector insisted I pay a fare to my original destination, even though I said I wanted to get off the train immediately to reduce the amount due, and if possible re-join the train I did have a ticket for 4 hours later.

6. The website selling the tickets said the ticket was unreserved, and therefore I could use any unreserved seat, on any permitted route, on any operator, on the date shown on the ticket. After purchase however it now says "STD ADV SINGLE", and the help screen says this is only a specific train.

7. The ticket inspector wasn't treating all customers equally. A gentleman sitting behind me, clearly an acquaintance of the inspector, didn't have a ticket and she simply said he should get one for next time. "In case it's someone else on here next week"

8. The IRCAS website listed doesn't allow appeals to be filed online. I have tried twice, both while on the train and as soon as I got home. The website shows a generic error message after entering my postcode and "Q" number.

9. The due amount is unreasonable. The original fare cost £7.90, and for the offence of travelling the exact same route the same day (still the same off peak rate), the unpaid fare notice is made out for £48.50, making the total amount I have paid 7x the original ticket price, and I didn't even miss that train - I was early!

10. The amount is, for me, unaffordable. As an unemployed student living off a low income student grant in shared London accommodation, this amount represents 2.5 weeks of food money (and I can provide food receipts to show this), and requiring me to pay it could make me homeless or damage my health.

The question
Are any of the above claims likley to be worth including in my appeal, and would you guys suggest including just one, or including a long list of claims and asking for them all to be considered?

Thanks in advance...


PS. I have already posted this in another forum, but that seems a bit quiet so I thought I'd try coming here to find you guys opinions as well!

dzug1

To be honest I don't think you've a leg to stand on and I wouldn't bother appealing.

You had an advance purchase ticket which is only valid on the train it was booked for. The reservation issue is a red herring - irrelevant.

You therefore didn't have a ticket for the train you were travelling on and were liable for the full walkon fare for that journey.

You were charged that fare - in fact the inspector was generous in that he allowed the fare you had paid against it, a concession he didn't have to make.

It sounds as though you didn't understand what you were doing, but that isn't grounds for not paying.

CrazyGuy256

dzug1 wrote: »

To be honest I don't think you've a leg to stand on and I wouldn't bother appealing.

Well the appeal is free, so I might as well - £50 is a lot to me, which is why I was on the cheapest ticket I could find.

Do you think any of my other "procedural" claims might hold up?

I just hate the idea of being asked to pay so much for a ticket I had already bought.

sebdangerfield

You hadn't bought the ticket, you bought a ticket for a different train wich traveled later. I doubt you have a chance. It's also not like you were a few minutes early catching the train before, 4 hours is a hell of a long time and the the train you ended up on may well have been far more expensive as a result. The other things like adding other info to the ticket is just so he has more info about you i.e your address and such if you do a runner. I doubt it would make a difference. Just nake sure if you do appeal you wont be liable for a further increase to your fine should your appeal fail.

dzug1

CrazyGuy256 wrote: »

Do you think any of my other "procedural" claims might hold up?
.

No - the procedures are irrelevant, even if they were wrong, given you are not being fined or penalised - just being asked to pay the fare for the journey you made at the on-train rate. As I said, you have been credited with the fare you already paid - you should have paid £56 odd.

KeithP

CrazyGuy256 wrote: »

Do you think any of my other "procedural" claims might hold up?

I wouldn't bother about your item #10...

10. The amount is, for me, unaffordable. As an unemployed student living off a low income student grant in shared London accommodation, this amount represents 2.5 weeks of food money (and I can provide food receipts to show this), and requiring me to pay it could make me homeless or damage my health.

I cannot imagine that how much you spend on food will be relevent.

CrazyGuy256

KeithP wrote: »

I wouldn't bother about your item #10....

I just thought I'd ask as a few other people on this and other sites have suggested that appearing unable to pay a penalty, while having used the system "in good faith", can work to someones advantage.

dzug1

CrazyGuy256 wrote: »

I just thought I'd ask as a few other people on this and other sites have suggested that appearing unable to pay a penalty, while having used the system "in good faith", can work to someones advantage.

But it's NOT a penalty. It's the actual fare you are being asked to pay. The fare anyone buying a ticket on the day would have paid.

olly300

CrazyGuy256 wrote: »

My Claims:
1. The unpaid fare notice is filled in unclearly. Both the date and time are scribbled out as if the inspector make a mistake and wrote over again the corect date and time.

Not relevant. As long as the writing can be read.

CrazyGuy256 wrote: »

2. The notice is marked as "No ticket", when in fact I did have a ticket for the journey, just not the seat reservation for the correct train.

Not relevant ticket inspectors etc always have a list of things they can only write.

CrazyGuy256 wrote: »

3. The ticket inspector has doodled some other information about my home address on the bottom of the form - is this ok?

They put your address on the form so what? They always check people's addresses.

CrazyGuy256 wrote: »

4. The ticket inspector took my original tickets from me, and refused to allow me to even take a photograph of them. (I still have the collection receipt and online booking confirmation email from thetrainline)

Then you have proof that you brought the £7.60 tickets, and he has proof he handed out a penalty ticket in replacement to your tickets.

CrazyGuy256 wrote: »

5. The ticket inspector insisted I pay a fare to my original destination, even though I said I wanted to get off the train immediately to reduce the amount due, and if possible re-join the train I did have a ticket for 4 hours later.

It's up to him and you to argue this one out.

If the next stop was 50 miles away he would have decided it was not feasible for you to get off the train. If the next stop was 5 miles away then that would be a different matter.

CrazyGuy256 wrote: »

6. The website selling the tickets said the ticket was unreserved, and therefore I could use any unreserved seat, on any permitted route, on any operator, on the date shown on the ticket. After purchase however it now says "STD ADV SINGLE", and the help screen says this is only a specific train.

What matters is what is on the actual ticket you used.

CrazyGuy256 wrote: »

7. The ticket inspector wasn't treating all customers equally. A gentleman sitting behind me, clearly an acquaintance of the inspector, didn't have a ticket and she simply said he should get one for next time. "In case it's someone else on here next week"

Not relevant.

If you don't start from a penalty fare station or can't get a ticket for any reason for example the ticket office not being open or the queues being long then as long as you pay the full fare at the first available moment they can't do you.

I've had plenty of fights with SWT over this as they forget their own rules.

In your case you presented a ticket for a train that was leaving later and the ticket was heavily discounted for this reason.

CrazyGuy256 wrote: »

8. The IRCAS website listed doesn't allow appeals to be filed online. I have tried twice, both while on the train and as soon as I got home. The website shows a generic error message after entering my postcode and "Q" number.

So you are going to have to do it the old fashion way.

CrazyGuy256 wrote: »

9. The due amount is unreasonable. The original fare cost £7.90, and for the offence of travelling the exact same route the same day (still the same off peak rate), the unpaid fare notice is made out for £48.50, making the total amount I have paid 7x the original ticket price, and I didn't even miss that train - I was early!

You cannot travel early or late if you have a ticket for a specific train. You have to travel on the train you brought the ticket for. It's not hard to understand.

The only time you can get away with this and even then you can have a fight with the ticket inspector if the train was cancelled. However that means you would be travelling on the next train which would be later.

CrazyGuy256 wrote: »

10. The amount is, for me, unaffordable. As an unemployed student living off a low income student grant in shared London accommodation, this amount represents 2.5 weeks of food money (and I can provide food receipts to show this), and requiring me to pay it could make me homeless or damage my health.

Nothing was stopping you getting on the right train. If you got on the right train or brought the right ticket then you wouldn't be going through this.

Train companies have heard every reason under the sun as an excuse.

Either pay up, or don't risk paying up and live with any consequences.

dzug1

CrazyGuy256 wrote: »

5. The ticket inspector insisted I pay a fare to my original destination, even though I said I wanted to get off the train immediately to reduce the amount due, and if possible re-join the train I did have a ticket for 4 hours later.

Well unless you went back to Exeter it wouldn't have helped.
Your advance ticket on the later train was only valid for travel from Exeter to London. If you had got on at say Sherborne it wouldn't have been valid and you would have been faced with the same situation again - pay full fare. OK there's a fair chance you could have got away with it - but if the inspector on that train said he saw you get on at Sherborne you would have been sunk.

So he might well have saved you money.