Help - PPC says owner is liable for charges even if NOT driver

catshome

My 79 year old Father in London received a PCN for £170 (£85 if paid in 14 days) from G24 dated 30/7/09 and relating to an alleged incident on private land in Ashford, Kent on 26/7. Their information came from CCTV footage. I was suspicious as it used a “catch all” description of who they thought they were writing to - “On the 26 Jul 2009 you were the registered owner/keeper/hirer/driver of the vehicle registration number………” so I used the information on MSE site to send this :

I am writing to advise you that I will not be paying the charges in respect of the above ticket for the following reason.
As you should be aware, when on private land, it is the driver, not the owner, who is liable, because a contract to park is formed between the landowner and the driver.
Since I can prove that I was at bingo in London at the time you consider the charge was incurred, I am not liable for any costs.

My Father then received a standard letter dated 7/8 saying that his appeal had been unsuccessful, but not addressing the points raised in his letter. We ignored this in line with the advice on the site.

Then a Final Reminder dated 17/8 arrived saying “Failure to pay……..will result in G24 forwarding the outstanding debt to a Debt Recovery Agency….” The outstanding amount has now changed to £105. This has really worried my Father who believes the Bailiffs will be knocking any time now.

On this final reminder they also say “As the registered owner/keeper of the vehicle……you are legally liable for the Parking charge even if you were not the driver at the time”. I am now also worried that the information I gave him was incorrect. At the same time, I can’t see how recovery of this alleged debt can be enforceable.

Can anyone clarify the legal position here?

As per the advice on the site, we also arranged to have someone visit the site to take photographs of any signs. There were two. Both were covered in graffiti, one was very hard to find to start with. A further sign up in a tree was folded in half and unreadable. There is a picture here of one of them :

(LINK REMOVED AS I AM A NEW POSTER - I COULD EMAIL IT TO ANYONE WHO WANTS TO SEE)

Many thanks
Cat (I wasn’t the driver either)

king100

Suggest to your father to get a file.

File these letters and anything else you get in there for reference purposes.

He is not legally required to name the driver.

Just ignore and DO NOT REPLY.

peter_the_piper

Just another lie they say to cooerce your father into paying. The only time this rule applies is when its a council/police ticket and certainly not a ppc. As Kingy says Ignore and Do Not Reply or put on any forum who was the driver.

sarahg1969

File it away; do not correspond any further. You will receive perhaps a couple more letters, and then they move on to their next victim.

catshome

Thank you all for the really speedy replies. I want to ignore them and I do believe they'll go away, it would just help reassure my Father if I could locate the rule/law/statute or whatever it is that states that PPCs can under no circumstances extort money from owners or oblige them to say who was driving - interesting that they haven't asked.........

Even the MSE site says that legal opinion is divided on the issue of PPCs - can't find it now to quote but I'm guessing you all know it well.

Thank you again
Cat

bargepole

catshome wrote: »

Thank you all for the really speedy replies. I want to ignore them and I do believe they'll go away, it would just help reassure my Father if I could locate the rule/law/statute or whatever it is that states that PPCs can under no circumstances extort money from owners or oblige them to say who was driving - interesting that they haven't asked.........

There is no law or statute relating to PPCs. For Council tickets the registered keeper is responsible, and for traffic offences, eg speeding, the police will require the owner to nominate the driver under s172. Neither of these has any bearing on private parking.

You may care to check out the forums at pepipoo, consumer action group, roadside lawyer, ticket fighter, etc etc - they will all tell you that 99% of these "tickets" are unenforceable, and PPCs very rarely risk making a county court claim as they are almost certain to lose.

That's why they make up all these fictional claims in their letters, to try to scare the ignorant into paying. You are now not in that category, having read all the sound advice on here.

BillTrac

Friend of mine got a ticket whilst he was parked in a McDonalds. Thing is he was actually inside the "restaurant" when ticketed.

I told him to ignore,because McDonalds were no help which he did. After several of the bailiffs/court/etc letters they have now stopped.

Saved him being conned into paying out mistakenly

Just ignore, do not contact them ever, them and eventually they will go away

oldone_2

Hi cat. your father belongs to an older generation where repect for officialdom and the laws of the land are ingrained in them. So it is understandable how he feels.

G24 are notorious for running close to the edge of illegality; and as you have found there is no appeal procedure. If you wrote to them saying Elvis is alive and well and parking in Tesco's car park, they would still reply saying your appeal has failed.

So far you are doing o.k; just continue to ignore anything and everything they send you.

You could try and put your father's mind at ease by directing him to this and other similar sites where countless people including lawyers and barristers advise just to ignore the PPC.

Coblcris

"As the registered owner/keeper of the vehicle……you are legally liable for the Parking charge even if you were not the driver at the time”"

This is clearly attempted Fraud (Fraud Act 2006 S.2) plus breaches of multiple consumer regulations. File all the paper as advised and relax.
You may wish to consider raising formal charges against this company once a full set of letters has been received. I most certainly would but unless your are familiar with the legislation that may be a task for you.