MONEY MORAL DILEMMA. Should Theo undercut Duncan's work at double pay?

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  • agudbuk
    agudbuk Posts: 8 Forumite
    tara747 wrote: »
    OK, I know I thanked your post above but that was before I read the bit in bold. I disagree, incidentally, but would be interested in hearing why you think that parents should pay more tax. Bearing in mind that their children will (hopefully) be working in adulthood and paying taxes of their own to fund oldies' NHS treatment (I'm not even going to get into debating whether the state pension will still exist by the time I'm 65! :eek:).

    I agree totally with the other bits though.

    From present figures most of the children being born are going to be NEETS
    (Not in Education, Employment and Training) and not supporting anyone.
    Plus the fact that preservation of the worlds resources and the reduction in carbon production is directly linked with population growth.
    If there's too many people we all go hungry. Still that's my rant for the day, always falls on deaf ears the majority of people are genetically programmed to want children irrespective of the consequences and therefore close their ears to arguments for population reduction(or even stability).
  • yes of course he should! they both work for the same company and need the money so are entitled to both get the overtime. Undercutting him only really benefits the company though so he should try to negotiate on something other than money. extra holiday maybe?
  • tara747
    tara747 Posts: 10,238
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    edited 20 August 2009 at 10:22AM
    Thanks for replying, it certainly doesn't bode well for so many to be economically inactive. Some certainly not through choice, but the UK welfare system does make it rather too easy for some who would prefer not to work. If we didn't incentivise teenagers to have children, would things be different? Looking at the Netherlands, I think so. Over there, teens who have babies are given a small allowance (€50 a month or something IIRC) and no council house. Thus they are obliged to live at home. Which puts a strain on their own parents. Thus there is HUGE pressure on them from family and society not to get pregnant. Result? Far lower teen pregnancy rates.

    I honestly think that the UK govt should have the courage to adopt the same system.

    You can say what you like, but when I was at school we were all terrified of getting pregnant - best contraceptive there is, let me tell you.

    I am all for people being free to reproduce (it is a basic human right after all) but I don't think that the state should encourage people to get pg for financial gain - which is exactly what it is doing. :( I know several people who CBA working and have got pg just to get a house and umpteen benefits. It's not very PC to point that out but it's true. Many of you probably know people who do the same.

    p.s. agudbuk, your suggestion that parents should pay more tax is possibly even more unfair in view of your NEET comments. Those who are working are already subsidising those who don't, are you suggesting that working parents should subsidise entire families of NEETs? That would increase the tax burden even more. Although taxes are inevitably going to rise after the next election, whoever is in power.

    ... sorry for the long post. Again, I am interested in other people's views.
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  • On the assumption that Theo and Duncan are equal (as good as each other at the job), I totally agree with A.Jones.

    Economic theory suggests that this would happen, the rate of pay would reduce at the marginal rate e.g standard pay per hour is £5, triple is £15, it would make sense for Theo to undercut by the smallest denomination, a penny, so he should offer to work for £14.99, the boss realising he is paying less will accept this offer. Then Duncan will counteract the offer with £14.98 and so on, and on and on. Until the "rock bottom" wage rate is realised. where this rock bottom rate is depends upon Theo and Duncan's willingness to work, or willingness to give up leisure time.

    So after rambling on and boring the world with economics, they don't call it the dull science for no reason! I disagree with the original statement. No Theo shouldn't undercut Duncan with double pay, as this is irrational, Duncan should undercut by the smallest amount he can and bargain with the boss until a suitable rate is reached for both parties. Of course this is theoretical and unlikely to work in the real world since most people will not think in this manner.

    So ultimately the best outcome is that as described by Stampede. If no one is willing to do the work, just employ someone else, preferably somebody who is unemployed, even better claiming dole and yes they may have a family to support as well, this is the best outcome for all, as another family now has an income, the boss is only paying normal pay and society benefits from the decrease in benefits having to be paid, this should also appeal to altimate's sentiments.
  • RuthnJasper
    RuthnJasper Posts: 4,032
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    tara747 wrote: »
    I am all for people being free to reproduce (it is a basic human right after all) ... sorry for the long post. Again, I am interested in other people's views.

    Tara, you are speaking perfect sense. I have been re-reading these posts and thinking (thinking is possibly a dangerous pastime, but - hey! - it's Friday tomorrow). When I was 16, I was told by a gynaecologist that (because of something awful that happened to me when I was a child) I cannot have children. This saddens me greatly. I would love to have kids. But I can't change the past. I love my dog dearly and am a caring and involved auntie to my brother and sister-in-law's children. And now I come to the point. Should I be prejudiced against because I don't have kids (a vague inherent suggestion in the MMD)?

    Personally, I would feel I'm just as entitled as Theo to the overtime. I cannot change the fact that I cannot conceive - but that does not affect my ability to turn in good work for my boss and be rewarded for it.

    Getting off-topic slightly, I know, but I do still think that Duncan should have the overtime, regardless of Theo's personal circumstances.
  • the company should have a policy on situations like this, to make sure all employees are treated fairly.

    duncan had the idea of offering to work at triple pay, theo should neither steal that idea, nor should he undercut a colleague. working people have fought very hard to get what few rights we enjoy today, why would we start to undermine that?
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  • Theo should tell duncan that he intends to undercut him by working for double time. Then let Duncan have the job at triple time in return for a percentage of the difference between the 2 rates. I am sure Duncan will still be happy while Theo can earn money while sitting at home with his family
  • c-m
    c-m Posts: 770
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    Taffybiker wrote: »
    Duncan and Theo should agree to take turns when overtime becomes available. Everyone's a winner.

    Winner - Economics dictates this.
  • tara747
    tara747 Posts: 10,238
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    cobwebs wrote: »
    Theo should tell duncan that he intends to undercut him by working for double time. Then let Duncan have the job at triple time in return for a percentage of the difference between the 2 rates. I am sure Duncan will still be happy while Theo can earn money while sitting at home with his family

    Are you serious???
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