The CSA, bank accounts and the law – some questions

Matt_Fry

PlayingHardball wrote: »

What would stop the PWC applying for a UK Court Order which would surely have to be enforced in Cyprus? (Question to the Legal Eagles, Mark and CMAC)

Nothing stops anyone applying for a UK court order, but it has no legal jurisdiction in Cyprus. Anyone can file an application for maintenance in Nicosea under the international reciprocating agreement on child maintenance (REMO), its a simple form to complete and cases are processed very quickly, but applications from a UK applicant tend to fail on incompatibility with local regulations on child support. They rely too much on the UK/CSA definition of child support. Typically the magistrate in Nicosea will offer custody of the child to the working parent but if that parent chooses not to have custody then a maintenance order is made. Its because social security in Cyprus is almost non existent, the government doesnt have the money.

Cyprus has maintenance enforcement laws but the structure in non existent, again, the government is skint, so a parent with a REMO order against him to pay can simply ignore it. The same is also true with motoring, very relaxed and keeps a happy medium between authority and public.

PlayingHardball wrote: »

OP has asked a fair few questions. Can I ask OP a question, why do you feel that the CSA assessment is wrong? Is it based on arrears or do you disagree with the 15% of net income payable to the PWC on behalf of your child/children?

I am presently seeking advice in this but its not a major problem if we cant fix it. The CSA says I am depriving myself of income because I sold my business and bought another outside CSA jurisdiction. They also charge 25% maintenance on operating profits of the business because the CSA says having my wife and accountant as a director is classed diverting income. We have beat this to death with the CSA and decided to leave the CSA to its own devices now it has become unenforceable under Cypriot common law.

My concerns is a trust I manage for a deceased friend, a yatchsman who died some years ago, and I must ensure assets remain safe in view of the CSA constantly passing new laws. Bloomberg ran an article about the CSA being able convert funds held in bank accounts to their own use, its not a major issue for me personally but I am concerned about assets I hold as trustee for his two children who live under my care.

My feeling is the CSA might bite the hand that feeds it. I currently pay voluntary maintenance via a UK bank account, and I think the CSA might snatch the bank account that pays them leaving me without a mechanism to continue paying.

CMAC_2

Matt_Fry wrote: »

Nothing stops anyone applying for a UK court order, but it has no legal jurisdiction in Cyprus. Anyone can file an application for maintenance in Nicosea under the international reciprocating agreement on child maintenance (REMO), its a simple form to complete and cases are processed very quickly, but applications from a UK applicant tend to fail on incompatibility with local regulations on child support. They rely too much on the UK/CSA definition of child support. Typically the magistrate in Nicosea will offer custody of the child to the working parent but if that parent chooses not to have custody then a maintenance order is made. Its because social security in Cyprus is almost non existent, the government doesnt have the money.

Cyprus has maintenance enforcement laws but the structure in non existent, again, the government is skint, so a parent with a REMO order against him to pay can simply ignore it. The same is also true with motoring, very relaxed and keeps a happy medium between authority and public.



I am presently seeking advice in this but its not a major problem if we cant fix it. The CSA says I am depriving myself of income because I sold my business and bought another outside CSA jurisdiction. They also charge 25% maintenance on operating profits of the business because the CSA says having my wife and accountant as a director is classed diverting income. We have beat this to death with the CSA and decided to leave the CSA to its own devices now it has become unenforceable under Cypriot common law.

My concerns is a trust I manage for a deceased friend, a yatchsman who died some years ago, and I must ensure assets remain safe in view of the CSA constantly passing new laws. Bloomberg ran an article about the CSA being able convert funds held in bank accounts to their own use, its not a major issue for me personally but I am concerned about assets I hold as trustee for his two children who live under my care.

My feeling is the CSA might bite the hand that feeds it. I currently pay voluntary maintenance via a UK bank account, and I think the CSA might snatch the bank account that pays them leaving me without a mechanism to continue paying.

Think most good lawyers would use the Hague Convention not REMO. HC is European Legislation and as such would be viewed from a European Harmonisation point of view. ( to achieve the correct effect)

Matt_Fry

Cyprus opted out of signing up to the Hague Convention 1996

CMAC_2

Matt_Fry wrote: »

Cyprus opted out of signing up to the Hague Convention 1996

Heres me thinking it has been signed by all other EU States (except Malta) and Switzerland.

Matt_Fry

You could well be right, my information is 2nd hand from a barman who had CSA problems and a Hague Convention matter on maintenance for childen in the UK fell through, I thought they said something about Cyprus deciding not to go through with it.



Edit: Your wikipedia link above says Cyprus has signed HC96, but the article suggests Cyprus chooses not implement it. That fits with our own observations. I dont think its ratified.

PlayingHardball

As someone currently going through a REMO, I'm curious to see how this ends up. I applaud the OP for making regular payments and hope that whatever is righteous and legal will be enforced in the long run.

Thank goodness my REMO isn't with Cyprus. I've lost a bit of respect for Cypriat child support systems after reading the above.

REMO is enforced because of/by the Hague convention, or so that is my understanding, isn't that correct?

Matt_Fry

PlayingHardball wrote: »

Thank goodness my REMO isn't with Cyprus. I've lost a bit of respect for Cypriat child support systems after reading the above.

Cyprus has a very fair child maintenance system, if a parent leaves a child the law says he must pay.

Many jurisdictions have their own ideas on child maintenance. Countries such as Brazil have reclassified British child support to be double-taxation. The UK deprives working parents of tax credits who live apart, the amount of liability is based on solely on parents income and nothing to do with the needs of the child. Some nations that have no welfare systems such as Libya and Yemen just take the child and give him to the working parent. Countries that sign to Hague Convention 1996 do so to enable enforcement against migrant working coming to Britain making them pay for their families back home, British workers earn nothing in many of these countries compared to UK cost of living, so an international maintenance order with many HC96 signatory countries would be worthless. Britains weekly £55 dole handout is six weeks salary in Equador and an Equadorian migrant worker in Britain served with HC96 order for £100 a week is akin to receiving £3500 a week from the CSA as child support.

Best advice. Seek a positive settlement with the other parent. Fighting with international agreements rarely work because signatory countries cant be bothered getting involved or dont like commit taxpayers money in enforcing maintenance orders for the benefit of people abroad.

enemes

Matt_Fry wrote: »

Cyprus has a very fair child maintenance system, if a parent leaves a child the law says he must pay.

Many jurisdictions have their own ideas on child maintenance. Countries such as Brazil have reclassified British child support to be double-taxation. The UK deprives working parents of tax credits who live apart, the amount of liability is based on solely on parents income and nothing to do with the needs of the child. Some nations that have no welfare systems such as Libya and Yemen just take the child and give him to the working parent. Countries that sign to Hague Convention 1996 do so to enable enforcement against migrant working coming to Britain making them pay for their families back home, British workers earn nothing in many of these countries compared to UK cost of living, so an international maintenance order with many HC96 signatory countries would be worthless. Britains weekly £55 dole handout is six weeks salary in Equador and an Equadorian migrant worker in Britain served with HC96 order for £100 a week is akin to receiving £3500 a week from the CSA as child support.

Best advice. Seek a positive settlement with the other parent. Fighting with international agreements rarely work because signatory countries cant be bothered getting involved or dont like commit taxpayers money in enforcing maintenance orders for the benefit of people abroad.

Very interesting post Matt

LizzieS_2

Matt_Fry wrote: »

Cyprus has a very fair child maintenance system, if a parent leaves a child the law says he must pay.

Many jurisdictions have their own ideas on child maintenance. Countries such as Brazil have reclassified British child support to be double-taxation. The UK deprives working parents of tax credits who live apart, the amount of liability is based on solely on parents income and nothing to do with the needs of the child. Some nations that have no welfare systems such as Libya and Yemen just take the child and give him to the working parent. Countries that sign to Hague Convention 1996 do so to enable enforcement against migrant working coming to Britain making them pay for their families back home, British workers earn nothing in many of these countries compared to UK cost of living, so an international maintenance order with many HC96 signatory countries would be worthless. Britains weekly £55 dole handout is six weeks salary in Equador and an Equadorian migrant worker in Britain served with HC96 order for £100 a week is akin to receiving £3500 a week from the CSA as child support.

Best advice. Seek a positive settlement with the other parent. Fighting with international agreements rarely work because signatory countries cant be bothered getting involved or dont like commit taxpayers money in enforcing maintenance orders for the benefit of people abroad.

Of course foreign countries will take the wages into account against the amount ordered to pay out. I thought they would also look at living costs differences too. Overall, it is impossible to pay £100UK if your income is equivalent to £50UK, whereas if your income was equivalent to £150UK the deduction may or may not be realistic (depends where you live).

Matt_Fry

We have almost completed our rounds of enquiries in the UK and its discivered my voluntary payments to the CSA are substantially in excess of current UK legislation. These are now being revised and given the extent of overpayments I could well be owed money.

I took CSA advice at the time to be honest and truthful and I genuinely believed I had a liability based on company profit. Its now understood its 15% of post-tax income and that is only if we still live in the UK. The solicitor agrees the information on the MEF is accurate and there is no reason why the CSA should consider otherwise. As I am officially classed non domicile by HMRC and I have no statutory obligation to pay the CSA anything at all despite their wild claims of high income and a pretence I am still working in the UK.

Once the arithmetic is worked out the solicitor will write to the CSA. There are currently no enforcement avenues available. Committal to prison is not an option because there is substantial evidence the assessment is wrong and a magistrate will not make a committal order against me under current guidelines issued to magistrates by the Ministry of Justice for presiding over CSA committal proceedings. Child support law does not say selling the boatyard is deprivation of income and there is evidence the CSA does not officially recognise the sale.

My reason for me posting here is about trusts I hold for my two children which I stand as legal guardian. I brought them up as my own children paid out of my own expense. Their trusts are safe provided they are not held as cash in a British bank account in my name. Just to be sure, the financial adviser has moved them offshore, and I will add my children as discretionary trustees under powers conferred to me under the Trustee Act to become effective when the youngest turns 18.

Our maritime lawyer chap confirms my Norfolk and Cambs rivercraft are of no interest to the CSA because their hulls are not tangible. They are converted vintage cargo vessels, we did the conversions ourselves in 1992, 1993 and 2003 and their hulls are still (technically) registered abroad because I never got round to re-registering them when I was given them as scrap. They fly the Red Ensign because they are licensed by the Environment Agency to trade in British inland waterways, MCA regulated and currently in service as commercial pleasurecraft with a charter company offering river cruises. Under international maritime law, non British registered vessels cannot be seized by bailiffs or the CSA or requisitioned for British military duty.

For HMRC purposes I am officially non domicile because I pay tax in Cyprus, however the UK could consider me deemed domicile because I have family living in Britain. There is no enforcement available so this status is meaningless and HMRC confirmed my tax affairs are settled and officially recognises the sale of the business.

We now return to Cyprus and leave the CSA to its own devices and I only hope they can sort out their problems between themselves. I dont think throwing public money at inventing new enforcement gimmicks is a good idea. The CSA should adopt a sensible approach to child support, use their energy in correcting wrong assessments and encouraging parents back to work by offering tax credits to all working UK parents regardless whether they live apart.

I have a feeling the more draconian the CSA becomes the more money it loses. Without these new bank-arrestment laws I wouldnt have otherwise come to Britain seeking advice from an expert about my children’s trusts, and my UK child maintenance overpayments would have continued undetected.

I have never met the child and my enquiries are constantly hampered by the CSA saying data protection act. My only hope she is not cooped up in some towerblock flat living on the social. I also hope one day she will come and visit us because there is so much on offer and I have four other children, my own two girls and two adopted boys all would love to get to know her.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can move forward on locating and seeking contact?