Double Glazing Quandry

Red_Snapper

Hello all - This is my first post, although I have been an avid lurker for ages! Sorry this may be quite long...I wanted to give as much detail as possible to get the best advice.

A while ago (over a year I think) I read a very informative thread on here about how to go about buying double glazing. Should have bookmarked it but foolishly didn't and I have been searching and searching the forums but can't find it.

So I am now looking for a little double glazing advice if anyone would be kind enough to help.

I have lived in my Victorian terraced house in South London for about 10 years. I have mainly wooden sash windows (not original) which are on their last legs and need replacing. For a range of reasons (ongoing maintainence, heat loss, security) we have decided to make the move to PVCu double glazing. None of the houses in my street have sashes so I am not too worried about compromising the authenticity of the property. That said I like sashes and would prefer to replace all the windows with like for like.

I have done some research and have had three of the big boys around to do quotes. I am now fully versed in 100% virgin PVC, argon filled units and jumping on units to show how strong they are!

Anyway my dilema is this - price is clearly a factor but not the only one - I am not necessarily going for the cheapest quote but want a quality product with longevity, a hassle free, timely installation and to know that all this spiel about lifetime guarantees and energy efficiency ratings is true. Is it worth paying a premium for "A" rated windows?

The quotes are for 6 sash windows:
2 x Main bedroom: 103 x 166 and 103 x 170,
2nd bedroom: 120 x 175,
Bathroom (obscured glass) 100 x137
Lounge: 121 x 164
Dining room: 123 x 181

2 normal casement windows for the kitchen 89 x 90 (top opening) and 103 x 95 (side opening)
Kitchen door - PVCu with single full length glazed panel 83 x 203
Composite Front door with 2 upper rectangular panels with square leading and obscured glass 83 x 203

Quotes (all last, best offer after faffing about with 50% discounts, today's special deal, calls to boss etc):
Everest - £11,372, "A" rated as standard, next door used them and were really happy with product, service etc
Anglian - £10,600

I like sashes because of the airflow and the look but have also had quotes for double opening casement windows:
Everest - £10,141
Anglian - c.£8,000
Safestyle - £5,063 "B" rated

What do you think? The Safestyle quote is better but I can't help feeling they are not as professional. Does anyone have any positive / negative experiences? Am I being silly focusing on the sashes?

I will also get local quotes and am aware that I am paying for overheads / advertising with the nationals but like the idea of comeback if it all goes wrong / they go bust.

Thanks

dander

Even with a composite door which costs extra, £10k sounds utterly insane to me.
Definitely get yourself to a local firm - if nothing else getting the quote is much easier - they don't do all that 'sign now and we'll give you 50% discount' kind of nonsense, just give you a sensible price in the first place.

Look for a local company that is FENSA registered and has been around for a decent amount of time and you'll still get the same kind of assurances. When I had mine done by a local firm I paid on completion of job, not in advance - so they don't go bust and take all your money with them!

Red_Snapper

Thanks for your replies Dander and Adrian. I am on Maternity leave at the moment so have time to sort this properly. However, realistically we are looking at least a six week lead time which means fitting in mid October at least so I would like to get cracking

Dander - FENSA are my new best friends already!

What about the £5k quote from Safestyle - are they cowboys?

Adrian - I am not too bothered about the difference between A and B - I have been putting up with my old drafty wooden sashes for years so anything would be an improvement I was thinking more about the implications on the HIP report when I sell the property. Also if I am forking out £1,000s I would rather get it right first time.

I will get onto local firms today and get them round ASAP. From my research I understand that most independents use bought in units - are any brands particularly good / bad? Should I be spending extra for sash style?

ETA - Adrian you've disappeared - do I do something?

rachbc

No direct expereince as we have gone with renovating original windows but my next door neighbour has twice had her upv sash window broken into - the police have told her that upv sashes are much less secure than upv casement windows and even wooden sashes - I have no idea if this is true but thought I'd pass it on if security is a consideration for you.

dander

I have no experience of Safestyle's windows but I did experience their sales technique and that was enough to put me off. They happened to call up with a "we're fitting someone in your street..." line just as I was getting quotes for windows anyway, so I thought I may as well see what a mainstream company has to say.
Salesman turned up and had no idea that I was in a conservation area which raised by eyebrows considering they were apparently fitting someone else in this road. He started talking about how they were currently offering a deal where they were offering a free upgrade toGeorgian bars and looked surprised when I said there were strict rules about the style of windows I could have anyway. Then I explained that any quotes would have to be in writing with a full description of what was being fitted because I needed to send them off for approval and for a grant application, at which point he said that was out of the question and couldn't get out of the house fast enough.

I'd heard so many tales of it being impossible to get windows salesmen out of your house, I was left a little shell-shocked! My feeling was certainly that if a company wants to take £8k off me without giving me a quote and specification in writing, then they aren't someone I want to be dealing with.

Red_Snapper

rachbc wrote: »

No direct expereince as we have gone with renovating original windows but my next door neighbour has twice had her upv sash window broken into - the police have told her that upv sashes are much less secure than upv casement windows and even wooden sashes - I have no idea if this is true but thought I'd pass it on if security is a consideration for you.

Thanks rachbc - I hadn't even heard about this - off to google now!

Red_Snapper

dander wrote: »

I have no experience of Safestyle's windows but I did experience their sales technique and that was enough to put me off. They happened to call up with a "we're fitting someone in your street..." line just as I was getting quotes for windows anyway, so I thought I may as well see what a mainstream company has to say.
Salesman turned up and had no idea that I was in a conservation area which raised by eyebrows considering they were apparently fitting someone else in this road. He started talking about how they were currently offering a deal where they were offering a free upgrade toGeorgian bars and looked surprised when I said there were strict rules about the style of windows I could have anyway. Then I explained that any quotes would have to be in writing with a full description of what was being fitted because I needed to send them off for approval and for a grant application, at which point he said that was out of the question and couldn't get out of the house fast enough.

I'd heard so many tales of it being impossible to get windows salesmen out of your house, I was left a little shell-shocked! My feeling was certainly that if a company wants to take £8k off me without giving me a quote and specification in writing, then they aren't someone I want to be dealing with.

That's exactly what happened to me - investigating double glazing and Safestyle happened to contact. Only Everest have given me a written quote but only for their "book" price of £22k. Both Anglian and Safestyle wrote it down for me on a piece of A4 - not surprised by Safestyle from what I've read but expected a formal quote from Anglian.

AdrianW2

Sorry, I miscalculated the payback time so I deleted the post rather than confuse.

I've found some more figures that put the heat loss difference between 'A' and 'B' at roughly 5% of a single glazed window. So I suspect that works out well below the £100/year you'd need to recover the cost in 30 years.

Looking on the Housebuying Board, I think I must be the only person in the country to even bother to reading the energy performance certificate, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

There's a user on here called "sashman" who may be able to help!

Red_Snapper

Thanks Adrian - I thought I was going mad!

Off to PM Sashman now - hope its not too presumptious as a new member

dander

£22k! Good grief.
I'm not an expert, so don't know what difference sashes make - but for comparison, I paid £8k for a total of 12 windows, including a bay and having one window knocked out beneath the sill and turned into French windows. No doors other than that.
This was for good quality, good looking windows approved for use in a conservation area and I'm in the Home Counties, so I don't suppose for a minute that that is a huge bargain - just the going rate.

sashman

Red Snapper

Don’t compromise, retain the character of your home AND enjoy the benefits of PVCu energy rated etc.

First off installers that use my sash windows charge £1200/£1600 per window depending upon the building work that’s needed and the choice of architraves etc you decide upon.

So 6 windows, two doors and a couple of casements circa £12/14k. Expensive yes but that’s fully loaded with every conceivable extra, you may wish to reduce that price by reducing the specification, not everyone wants every extra on their windows.

OK now for some specifics.

Either pm me or check my previous posts, but look for SBD, EST,GGF, BBA, FENSA

SBD is the polices secured by design partnership (their preferred partners because these companies offer ENHANCED security (something that’s not required by law or under the buildings regs) http://www.securedbydesign.com/companies/category.aspx?category=2

Companies claim to have this but its NOT on their sash windows!!! Worth checking their site

EST is the Energy Savings Trust, again many people claim energy efficient windows, but only those rated C or above can claim to be EST recommended.

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Home-improvements/Home-insulation-glazing/Glazing
will give trade names of companies but difficult web site to navigate, so try http://www.bfrc.org/Consumer/search.aspx this site lists the product types, material types and window styles. AGAIN many claim to have but very few have EST accreditation on their sash windows

GGF is the glass and glazing federation, recognised in the industry as the federation that looks after consumers, if a member fails (or you just have an issue that needs independent arbitration) then the GGF step in and help the consumer. Many of the big boys are members but not everyone http://www.ggf.org.uk/homeowners.aspx


BBA is the British Board of Agreement, an independent body set up to validate technical claims made by manufacturers. Not every one has BBA but it shows a company has third parties to scrutinise their claims for the longevity, life expectance etc. Seems they aren’t listing certificates correctly (I couldn’t find any of ours?) http://www.bbacerts.co.uk/system_pages/search.aspx?terms=certificates

Lastly FENSA is a self regulation building compliance organisation. Don’t think they check quality of installations or offer guarantees of such. Most people have heard of them but installers are checked to ensure they have installed, what they have claimed. http://www.fensa.org.uk/FENSAHomeownerHome.aspx

Many big companies still want to sign on the night, but there are more professional companies who’ll prepare a report for you (free) or at least a written proposal for your consideration, a glossary of terms so you understand the options available to you, samples of other installations for you to chat with the owners to verify they do respect your home

PM me if you want some names but this should get you started.

sashman