Half of apprentices dumped by construction firms

bluey890

vivatifosi wrote: »

Nephew wasn't replaced by a foreigner. Just got cut.

In terms of singing the praises of using a foreign workforce, I'm more meritocratic than that. I just believe in using the right person for the right job. If they happen to be from overseas, so be it, providing they are here legally and with a right to work.

The right person all too often happens to be cheap foreign labour (people moved hundreds of miles from there families), usually at the expense of opportunities for the young. The country needs to invest and train its young.

An influx in skilled construction workers mean less potential opportunities for your nephew, and may unfortunately have contributed to him being cut.

bo_drinker

Every body thought all our woes would be solved when the gates were opened for the cheap foreigners, and many filled the jobs our layabout scum didn't want to do, so the scum sat back and took from the state some more, why?? because there was no one out there with the ba11s to make them work. They are still on the take with a good excuse"there aint no jobs cos o the credit crunch innit" Many foreigners have legged it now the cream has gone and they sent most of their earnings home avoiding putting much back into the economy here anyway. But blighty scum neither cares nor understands it is their fault why?? cos the dole still comes every week, and next week and the year after and for their scum offspring as well. Great Britain?? I think not.

vivatifosi

bluey890 wrote: »

The right person all too often happens to be cheap foreign labour (people moved hundreds of miles from there families), usually at the expense of opportunities for the young. It's not right. The country needs to invest and train its young.

I agree the country needs to invest and train its young. The government changing standards and giving everyone leaving school a shedload of qualifications makes things worse imo. Somewhere along the lines the trades have become devalued. My family have been in the construction and associated industries for about 100 years, its very cyclical and always hit hard in a downturn. Foreigners have come and gone in this time, in the past the competition often came from Ireland.

I don't know what the answer is. I have good friends in France and the Netherlands, where job rights are much stronger and fewer people from Eastern Europe were given access to the job market. When they have jobs they have great jobs, with good unions and good working conditions, but when they end up unemployed, its awful. It has taken friends up to two years to find a job in a good market. The reason being that companies have to be absolutely sure that they are taking on the right person for a real job before they do so. I honestly don't see how a more restrictive system is any better. Different, yes, but better, no.

bluey890

More hoops for foreign labour. Better training (to a good international standard) for the young .
IMO education, education, education turned out to be one big Labour Party lie.

ETA: also incentivise good behaviour, at the moment the wealthfare state doesn't.

vivatifosi

I'd go along with that. I think if the rate of pay had to be published for the job, so that people could report firms that underpay through employment of foreign workers after the pay scale had been published, that could help too. I believe in meritocracy, not in underhand business practices.

treliac

bluey890 wrote: »

The right person all too often happens to be cheap foreign labour (people moved hundreds of miles from there families), usually at the expense of opportunities for the young. The country needs to invest and train its young.

Protectionism is politically incorrect. But there's a problem with the whole concept. If it led to greater equality across the world, then fine, but it doesn't do so. The stronger, fitter, more mobile, less tied by home responsibilities, etc. etc. will benefit. Opportunities are not, however, equally open to everyone. And rates of pay relate to a prevailing local economy, meaning that it is easier for some to work for low pay than others.

It seems that the system is flawed. Other countries apparently flout EC laws in favour of their own folk. We seem to stick to the rules and at the detriment of our own countrymen.

I don't see how this can continue. British people often don't feel treated properly and nor would I in the scenarios highlighted.

I don't see EU laws being acceptable per se and, increasingly, I find myself feeling that 'charity should begin at home.'

Goodwill and egalitarianism cannot be engendered by legislation alone.

vivatifosi

treliac wrote: »

I don't see how this can continue. British people often don't feel treated properly and nor would I in the scenarios highlighted.

I don't see EU laws being acceptable per se and, increasingly, I find myself feeling that 'charity should begin at home.'

Goodwill and egalitarianism cannot be engendered by legislation alone.

Now that I do blame on the government. They had a choice as to whether or not to admit people from Eastern Europe and decided to open the doors without a quota, in the woefully incorrect view that only a few would come. Very few countries in Europe didn't put a quota in place, I think it was about 3 or 4, with the UK being by far the largest. We live on an island with only a few legal points of entry, but have no decent border force (as per Australia for example), even though in practice it should be harder to get here than continental Europe for illegal immigrants.

I find the view that the country is putting immigrants first strangely widespread and equally repugnant. If people have a right to come here then we cannot blame them for coming and finding jobs, we also can't blame companies for employing them if they have a willing, able and enthusiastic employee standing in front of them. What we need is a government with the balls to address these issues with realistic policy rather than fudge.

thriftybabe

bo_drinker wrote: »

This is true but on the flip side there will be a skills shortage in the future, and people will whinge when they can't find a bricklayer or a plumber Everyone and their dog will have degrees and I T skills but they will be worthless.

I agree. There is definitely going to be skill shortages again due to the recession. I was speaking to an Architect we work with on our extension business and he says that people think all the joiners, brickies etc are all sitting about and do not want to pay them much as they think they have not a lot of work (which in part is true!). However, people forget that these guys go through 4 years apprenticeships just like people with certain degrees. Our HSE officer is charging us £40 an hour:eek: and this is during the recession. The computer guy that we go to charge is £400 for a half day:eek:. We are lucky if we get an hourly rate of £14 an hour! That is not bad for someone who has done training for 4 years before qualifying as a tradesman.

thriftybabe

vivatifosi wrote: »

Now that I do blame on the government. They had a choice as to whether or not to admit people from Eastern Europe and decided to open the doors without a quota, in the woefully incorrect view that only a few would come. Very few countries in Europe didn't put a quota in place, I think it was about 3 or 4, with the UK being by far the largest. We live on an island with only a few legal points of entry, but have no decent border force (as per Australia for example), even though in practice it should be harder to get here than continental Europe for illegal immigrants.

I find the view that the country is putting immigrants first strangely widespread and equally repugnant. If people have a right to come here then we cannot blame them for coming and finding jobs, we also can't blame companies for employing them if they have a willing, able and enthusiastic employee standing in front of them. What we need is a government with the balls to address these issues with realistic policy rather than fudge.

We have employed Polish in the past and they were fantastic. They were very enthusiastic. They got paid the same rates as everyone else but made more cause they went in earlier and left later. When things were going really fast on sites we found them a great help and the enabled us to achieve targets set by the Contractors. At the moment we have 3 British guys working for us and they get priority (albeit it is not regular work at the moment). They have been loyal to us for years and they are the guys we are trying to hang on to. However, had the Polish worked for us the longest then they would have been the ones that we would have been most loyal to. It is just the way things have turned out.

bo_drinker

thriftybabe wrote: »

I agree. There is definitely going to be skill shortages again due to the recession. I was speaking to an Architect we work with on our extension business and he says that people think all the joiners, brickies etc are all sitting about and do not want to pay them much as they think they have not a lot of work (which in part is true!). However, people forget that these guys go through 4 years apprenticeships just like people with certain degrees. Our HSE officer is charging us £40 an hour:eek: and this is during the recession. The computer guy that we go to charge is £400 for a half day:eek:. We are lucky if we get an hourly rate of £14 an hour! That is not bad for someone who has done training for 4 years before qualifying as a tradesman.

I noticed the rates have taken a dive in construction. Some jobs on the J C site are paying tradesmen what labourers were on a couple of yrs ago. Can't see many other occupations standing for this, but as I have said before if you are s/employed you are scum, and more so in the construction game. Trouble is the construction will lose from apprentice end and skilled end as many will get out this year And when they get into something else and don't lose days to the rain they will get used to it.:T It happened before.