A chance for all bankrupts to change your life - Your help needed!

4$£&*(£$&*(!

I have started a new post for this as it's important on its own, and comes from Otto Thoresen's office, Director General of the ABI.

Thank you for your letter of 7 June about insurers' approach to bankruptcy when assessing risk. Following a letter from Maggie Craig in March, responding to your concerns that insurers require a full declaration of bankruptcy, you suggested a period of six years would be reasonable.

Our work to better understand insurers' use of bankruptcy and other credit-related factors in assessing risk remains ongoing. Following an initial survey of ABI members to establish the products in which different factors are most prevalent, we are now in the process of establishing how long insurers that use bankruptcy as an indicator of risk believe it to be a relevant factor. While we have not reached any conclusions at this stage, it may be the case that different firms' claims experience has an impact on their approach and to assess this we are also looking at the extent to which approaches vary within each product market.

When this exercise is complete in the autumn I will write to you again with further considerations about what more can be done to make it clearer for customers and third parties to understand what should be disclosed to insurers, and why.

Thank you for your constructive interest in this matter.

Ineedaname

Groupama seem to be passing the buck to the software providers, but somebody somewhere has input to what goes into the computer systems.

It sounds like they would accept a BR after discharge but their computer system apparently won't. However, they don't say at what point their computer system would accept an ex BR, 6 years down the line or ever? What question does their software ask? Have you ever been BR? Or Have you been BR within xx years?

The ABI response is more positive however, I really think you are starting to get somewhere now.

4$£&*(£$&*(!

I have written to Confused.com. I am particularly disappointed with them as they ask more detailed questions about bankruptcy than other comparison sites do, yet only return one quote regardless what is entered.

I would like to bring to your attention a problem with your quotes for home insurance, to identify how this issue has arisen, the current publicity and involvement with the industry, and to ask how you aim to rectify the matter as far as you are able to. This issue relates specifically to quotes involving bankruptcy.

My partner was declared bankrupt in 2008 and was subsequently discharged one year later. Prior to her living with me, I had an excellent no claims history and routinely received competitive quotes. Following her moving in, whilst I maintain my no claims history, the quotes I am able to receive via comparison sites are unusually high.

Confused.com returned 60 results for me when I do not declare anyone in the household to be bankrupt. When I do declare bankruptcy accurately, only 'HomeProtect' returns as an option for me, the other 59 results no not return. The HomeProtect policy is in excess of twice the price of the cheapest result when bankruptcy is undeclared.

I am aware your website has been changed as you formerly asked the question if anyone at the house has ever been bankrupt. Instead now you ask who it was, what the situation was, and how long ago this happened. With this in mind I would expect it to be easy to identify insurers more able to help, yet this is not the case.

I have spoken directly to a number of insurers who your site refuses to return a quote for once I enter my information accurately on bankruptcy. So far, Endsleigh, Churchill, AA Insurance, Co-Operative Insurance, the AXA group and others have commented they would have no problem covering me. Endsleigh state bankruptcy is only a payment risk if monthly payments are chosen during the bankruptcy period. Churchill do not consider bankruptcy as part of their risk analysis, nor do Co-Operative Insurance. AXA and AA Insurance only require bankruptcy to be declared within the bankruptcy period, not following discharge. Some of these insurers advise they may contact you directly to address this issue.

This matter is receiving a considerable amount of publicity on Martin Lewis' MoneySavingExpert.com bankruptcy forums 'bankruptcy friendly home insurers'. Positive and negative results are being published online, and a further linked thread on this topic has received over 17,000 views. The ABI has commissioned a report on how bankruptcy data is processed which completes in the autumn, I would welcome you feeding Confused.com's position to them, their Director General's email address is [EMAIL="otto.thoresen@abi.org.uk"]otto.thoresen@abi.org.uk[/EMAIL]. The ABI is currently aware of my position and comments about comparison sites.

I look forward to hearing your views and how you aim to resolve the situation of providing more accurate quotes for customers. I should point out the position of some insurers state they rely on the comparison sites to ask appropriate questions and are suggesting the fault lies with you, rather than you asking questions the insurers find relevant. I am sure that as your quotes provided in my example are so inaccurate compared with what the insurers say is relevant you will be keen to resolve this issue, especially with the ABI's report on this matter in mind and the additional custom you may generate once this matter is rectified.

MissCynical

Hi All, apologies for the tardiness in posting email address for Citizens Advice Social Policy. The best I can come up with is:
[EMAIL="campaigns@citizensadvice.org.uk"]campaigns@citizensadvice.org.uk[/EMAIL]. If this isn't the correct address then maybe the people on the end of this email address can point you in the right direction.

4$£&*(£$&*(!

One Call brokers say:

I can confirm that as One Call Insurance is an insurance broker, we represent a panel of over 50 insurance companies. Different insurance companies have different terms and limits on all the aspects of the details entered.

If you wish to discuss a household quotation direct and discuss the time period in regards to bankruptcy please call 01302 554013.

Also in regards to amending the question stated on the price comparison website, this would need to be taken up with GoCompare.com as One Call Insurance can not decide what varied questions are asked. The reason being is that all insurance companies work and operate in different ways.


I reply:

Thank you for your response. I appreciate your position however I am trying to work with brokers to understand how many insurers this is a problem with and how long they take bankruptcy into consideration. I am sure your suggestion of telephoning for a quote is an easy option to suggest; I would like you to go a little deeper than this however as it is something I am trying to determine if I need to escalate it to the Ombudsman.

Putting this into perspective there are several dozen insurers who refuse to provide an online quote due to bankruptcy. If I telephoned each broker and intermediary to obtain a quote it would take me around three days. If instead insurers came up with a sensible position on bankruptcy being disregarded after a certain duration, the price comparison sites could reword their questioning appropriately on bankruptcy and I could come up with a number of quotes in a matter of minutes.

My discussions with a number of intermediaries and insurers reveal that the vast majority of organisations disregard bankruptcy either completely, within 12 months or within 24 months. Will you confirm how many of your 50 insurers disregard bankruptcy in this way, and how many still consider bankruptcy to be an issue?

Whilst this is an arduous task I present to you, it is an important one as if left unchallenged I am faced with hours of work trying to work with all the brokers, intermediaries and insurers every single time my renewal notice arrives potentially for the rest of my life. As I am challenging this position I aim to reach a positive outcome and I would like to work alongside you to reach a mutually beneficial outcome, rather than working against companies which causes unnecessary delays and costs to both sides. Ultimately I am looking for a result however.

You are welcome to follow this progress on Martin Lewis' moneysavingexpert.com forums where I am publicising outcomes. Positive outcomes are collected in a thread which may in turn increase business for your organisation. Many thanks in anticipation for your help.

4$£&*(£$&*(!

One Call reply:

Unfortunately I am not in a position to confirm the limits of bankruptcy periods with our insurance companies.

As requested previously, if you contact 01302 554013, the household team will run through the full details of a quotation with you. We will then contact and refer the details over to the insurance company that provides the best quotation on the list. Then the information you require will then be obtained.

Please do accept my apologies as I can’t help you further on this matter.


I reply:

Thank you for your further response. Can I clarify is this your final position and have I exhausted your internal complaints procedure?


(Next step Ombudsman for this, I'm taking on each company one by one).

4$£&*(£$&*(!

One Call seem to be going round in circles. They say:

Thank you for your email.

I can confirm that as One Call Insurance is an insurance broker, we represent a panel of over 50 insurance companies. Different insurance companies have different terms and limits on all the aspects of the details entered.

For us to gather the information of your query please contact our Household department on 01302 554013. At quotation stage they shall be able to refer the requested details to the individual insurers.

Unfortunately we are unable to divulge any further into the matter without the above process. I do apologise for any inconvenience that this may have caused.

Please see below for our internal complaints procedure:

One Call complaint handling procedure
One Call aims to provide you with a high level of customer service at all times throughout the duration of your policy. If you have experienced a problem with any part of our service or insurance cover, we aim to resolve this as quickly and fairly as possible. One Call Insurance are regulated by the Financial Services Authority. We use the guidelines set out by the FSA to ensure that our customers receive a fair, consistent and prompt resolution wherever possible.

We advise that you follow this procedure to ensure your complaint is dealt with promptly.

Your complaint is not valid if it is not reported to us in the first instance.
* Please ensure that your claim is eligible according to our Terms of Business.
* Please quote your customer reference number in all correspondence.
*
Step 1:

In the first instance, contact the appropriate department during the following hours:
9am - 8pm Mon - Thur, 9am - 6pm Fri & Sat, 10am - 4pm Sun

Sales Department: 01302 554 012
* Customer Services / Breakdown Membership / Insurance services: 01302 554 015
* Commercial Legal - Legal Cover / Hire Car / Excess Reducer: 0845 344 0199
*
All staff have been trained to provide a high level of service and will try to resolve any matter where possible. If the advisor is unable to reach a satisfactory resolution for you they will refer you to the appropriate Line Manager who will also try to resolve your complaint.

Step 2:

If you still remain dissatisfied following your conversation with the Line Manager, you can write to The Complaints Handling Manager, First Point, Balby Carr Bank, Doncaster, South Yorkshire DN4 5JQ.

Step 3:

A written final resolution letter will be sent to you once all investigations are complete within 8 weeks of receipt of your complaint. If you are satisfied with our final response, we will require oral or written confirmation from you in order for us to close our file. If we do not receive a response from you within 8 Weeks of our final response then we will close our file automatically.

Step 4:

If at this stage however, you still remain dissatisfied, then you have the right to refer your complaint to an approved dispute resolution facility run by the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS) at South Quay Plaza, 183 Marsh Wall, London E14 9SR. Please include your policy number and quote "One Call Insurance Services Ltd" as reference. Please note that your complaint is not valid unless all of the above steps have been followed and is referred within 6 months of our final response.

For further information on making complaints you can visit the FSA Website. https://www.fsa.gov.uk


I'm not too impressed at all, so I say:

Thank you for forwarding your complaints procedure.

I have provided you with all my relevant personal details via GoCompare.com which advised me you are unable to return a quote. I understand in order for GoCompare.com to return this result they have to forward my details to you. If you have not received my personal information please refer to GoCompare.com. It is your general position however which is responsible for the cause of my complaint, and I have already obtained household insurance cover so I do not require any further quotes from you at this stage.

My position remains since my partner was declared bankrupt in 2008 and subsequently discharged in 2009 some companies are opting to refuse online quotations. Anecdotally it appears this is because it is easier for some businesses to request customers telephone them rather than to address the underlying cause of an inadequate consideration position enabling online quotations. As I have already mentioned several businesses have declined to provide online quotes (which I am addressing individually with each of those businesses) since if I followed your suggested model of telephoning when an online quote is unavailable I estimate three working days would be required to get quotes which are available online within minutes.

Following discussions with the ABI, Otto Thoresen (Director General) has commissioned work on how a general consensus can be reached within the industry how bankruptcy data is held. You may wish to contact his office to feed into the work, due to complete this autumn. Whilst this work goes on, I aim to discuss this matter individually with companies.

From your complaints procedure it is clear I have exhausted step one. I have made my complaint known, advised One Call Direct the response is not satisfactory and asked if this is your final position. You have not answered this point. I presume, following your complaints procedure, since this original complaint was dealt with by Jamie you are his line manager and you have reiterated your company position. Please therefore refer this to step two, your Complaints Handling Manager. I note your complaints procedure leans toward encouraging complaints being resolved by telephone however there is no directive by either FSA COB/ICOBS documents which hold me to this and following information from the Ombudsman I have been proactive in making you aware of my complaint and steps required to address my concerns. Therefore I will be continuing to correspond with you by email and not telephone, ensuring both parties have a fair and reflective record of communications.

I remain committed to working together to resolving this issue to our mutual benefit. I would like to remind you a formal representation can be made to the Ombudsman eight weeks following the initial complaint and well over two weeks has already elapsed, you may wish to bear this in mind before considering which stage of your complaints process you consider we are at.

4$£&*(£$&*(!

Confused.com state:

In my last response I advised that I was in the process of speaking to our Compliance and Home Insurance Team's for further information on this.

I would like to take this opportunity to clarify our role as a price comparison website and in turn provide an explanation for you that will address the points raised in your email

I can confirm that our question set is tailored according to the requirements of the providers on our panel. Typically providers will operate stricter criteria when providing quotations online, as it is extremely difficult to include all of the specific questions required by the 60+ providers so that they are able to complete the necessary risk assessment. Because of this, many exclusions are implemented that may not necessarily be applicable when contacting the providers directly.

One of the restrictions set by the providers online is not to return quotations for customers who have been declared bankrupt. This is the case for all of the providers on our panel apart from one. Home Protect, in contrast, allow customers to obtain a quotation online as they specialise in providing quotations for customers that enter information that is classed as a non-standard risk e.g. a customer that has been declared bankrupt. In order to provide quotations for various unusual circumstances 'Home Protect' act as a broker for several insurance companies, as such, customers are not restricted to one quote from one provider in this instance, although it appears as such on your prices page, where the cheapest quote is displayed.

I appreciate that many of the providers you have spoken to advise they are able to generate quotations for your circumstances direct (the reason for this is explained above) and in some cases have advised that they would contact us directly to address the issue. Rest assured, our Home Team are aware of this and await further communication from the providers concerned. Invariably, the providers are responsible for providing quotations on price comparison websites. As such, this notification would need to come from them directly. This is certainly an exciting prospect as this would generate further income for our website and enable customers, like yourself, to return more quotations.

To conclude, as your inability to return more that one quotation at present is as a result of provider restrictions and is not something that we have control over at Confused.com, I have closed your complaint as not upheld. However, I hope this information has been of some help and that I have handled your complaint to your satisfaction. I hope that we will be able to provide you with price comparisons in the future.

If you remain unhappy with the outcome, you have the right to escalate your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service within six months of receiving this email.

You can contact the Financial Ombudsman by telephone on 0800 023 4567 or 0300 123 9 123 or by emailing them at complaint.info@financial-ombudsman.org.uk. Their postal address is: The Financial Ombudsman Service, South Quay Plaza, 183 Marsh Wall, London, E14 9SR.

Please also use the link below to view the Financial Ombudsman Service leaflet 'Your Complaint and The Ombudsman'.

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/consumer-leaflet.htm


What a cop-out!!! That reads to me as they don't want to know. I'm going to get the other insurers playing off Confused.com and contact them all to request they take this matter up directly. In the meantime I want to offer Confused.com a last chance to be a little more sensible and stop fobbing me off.


I reply:

Thank you for your response. I would like you to consider this a little further before considering this matter closed; I appreciate I have the right for raising this with the Ombudsman which I intend to however I think there may be a little more mileage to discuss first.

Your question tailors bankruptcy to ask who has been bankrupt and how long ago it was. Several of the companies your site refused to return quotes on stated they would be happy to provide cover for me. These include Endsleigh, who only require bankruptcy to be declared during the first year after bankruptcy; SwiftCover who disregard bankruptcy after two years; AA Insurance who disregard bankruptcy after one year.

All these companies advise it is Confused.com's site they have no control over and clearly indicate your site's failing is responsible for not returning a quote.

Ahead of me escalating this matter, would you be kind enough to reconsider your position? I will reluctantly escalate this including the evidence other insurers have provided me with against your position to the Ombudsman but I would like you to fully appreciate it is your organisation which is at fault, as opposed to the insurers you are advising in this instance.

4$£&*(£$&*(!

FSA say:

I understand from your correspondence that you wish to bring to the FSA's attention the fact that those applying for home insurance have to declare if they or anyone living in the property is a bankrupt. If they are then it has an adverse effect of the level of premium that you pay. You feel that this is unfair.

Firstly, I would like to thank you for taking the time to prepare and send us your enquiry. I can understand why you have brought this matter to the FSA's attention.

The FSA regulates the sale and administration of general insurance products, including motor insurance. There are specific rules on how insurance firms should act in relation to this activity and these can be found in the Insurance Conduct of Business Sourcebook (ICOBS).

www.fsahandbook.info/FSA/html/handbook/ICOBS

However, the FSA does not have the power to regulate the pricing of insurance products. Pricing and underwriting decisions made by regulated firms are a matter of commercial judgment and outside the FSA's remit

Furthermore, the FSA does not generally have the power to regulate the terms that underwriters choose to offer to customers, where these are compliant with applicable legislation. However, the FSA does have powers under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 to challenge unfair terms in standard form consumer contracts. Where we find an unfair term in a contract, including insurance contracts, we can ask firms for an undertaking to change the term concerned and, where necessary, seek an injunction to prevent the insurer including or relying on the term. When we are presented with evidence of unfair contract terms, we will take action: consumers are able to send such evidence direct to the FSA for consideration.

If you feel that a contract is unfair then please feel free to email it to the FSA at the following address
[EMAIL="unfair.terms@fsa.gov.uk"]unfair.terms@fsa.gov.uk[/EMAIL]

Any submission must include a copy of the contract highlighting the unfair term(s) and a commentary from you explaining why you feel that it is unfair.

If you have any future questions on financial services and products, you may find it easier to call our Consumer Helpline on 0845 606 1234 (call rates may vary). You can also access relevant information online at
www.fsa.gov.uk/pages/consumerinformation

and via the Money Advice Service website:
www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/


In particular, the following link gives useful information on home insurance
http://yourmoney.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/products/insurance/buildings_and_contents.html

I trust I have clarified our position in this matter and I hope this is helpful.

4$£&*(£$&*(!

This is unusual. I have had info back from SwiftCover and M&S already who state bankruptcy isn't an issue beyond two years (I have already posted about this). Then I receive this email:

Thank you for your recent communication regarding our AXA Home Insurance product. Your complaint has been formally recorded on our internal systems and allocated the ID number above. I shall be handling the complaint going forward. This is in line with the regulations of the Financial Services Authority (FSA) and I have included a copy of our complaints procedure.

Firstly, I should like to apologise for any inconvenience, upset or difficulty that this matter has caused. It is my understanding that you are unhappy with our Underwriting Criteria, particularly our decision to decline cover as your partner has been previously declared bankrupt. After investigating your complaint, I should now like to share my findings.

For clarification purposes, our decision to refuse cover for this reason is based on detailed risk assessment and complex statistical analysis. Our decisions to refuse cover for certain situations are never made lightly and are supported by a great deal of evidence. These decisions are made as part of our commercial judgement. By controlling the risk that we insure, we can exercise greater control over the premiums we offer customers. As part of my investigation in to your complaint, your comments have been shared directly with the Underwriter responsible for our Home Insurance product and your case has been discussed at length. As correctly pointed out in your previous email, we do not ask specific questions relating to the occupants bankruptcy status. Our Underwriters have confirmed that it would be impractical for us to do so on every quote. However, we will now conduct further internal investigations into the issues you have raised regarding our procedures and processes.

In the meanwhile, we cannot offer cover for your home on this occasion. I am sorry for any disappointment that this may cause and our decision may be reviewed in future depending on the outcome of our enquiries.

Overall, I was disappointed to learn that the standard of service you received on this occasion was not of our usual high standard. Again, please accept my apologies on behalf of AXA and thank you for your patience in this matter.


So I reply:

Thank you for your response. I will admit to being a little confused by your position on this matter given other brands within the AXA umbrella have given me a far different response.

Representatives at SwiftCover (Angela Banks) and M&S (Jessica Baker) brands have indicated there is no problem providing cover so long as no-one at the home has been declared bankrupt within the last two years.

I would appreciate your comments on this, and additionally how you plan to take this matter forward with the price comparison websites. Whilst Angela and Jessica are advising bankruptcy is not a problem beyond two years, the price comparison sites are blaming the insurers and intermediaries for not returning a quote. In particular, Liam Davies of Confused.com states 'One of the restrictions set by the providers online is not to return quotations for customers who have been declared bankrupt'. I would like to know how you plan to work around these restrictions as, if Liam's comments are accurate, this appears grossly unfair given SwiftCover and M&S brands state they will cover. Any consumer unaware of this is likely to receive poorer quotations and you are likely to lose custom.

Would you be able to expand on why exactly you are stating you would not be able to provide me with cover within the scenario you describe, and why SwiftCover and M&S are happy to cover? Finally, after how long would you consider bankruptcy to be non-impacting on underwriting?