A chance for all bankrupts to change your life - Your help needed!

4$£&*(£$&*(!

Brit Insurance replies:

Generally speaking each insurer has their own underwriting criteria as far as bankruptcy is concerned. There are no hard or fast rules, so suffice to say, they would look at each case on its individual merits taking into consideration the nature and circumstances of the bankruptcy and the time that has lapsed.


Am I reading that correctly - they say it's not their final decision but more the insurance company who give the quotes? If that's the case I think uSwitch and CoverDirect have not played fair. Both these two (owned by the same parent company) blamed the underwriter for not insuring bankrupts or newly discharged bankrupts. Brit (who underwrite both the policies I looked at) seem to say nothing of the sort.

I want to write my true thoughts about the parent company in that case, but given I am being objective I will simply say I have raised eyebrows about them if I have understood Brit correctly. I have emailed Brit for some clarification.

1worried1

Just seen this thread and emailed the people for croydon area

4$£&*(£$&*(!

Brit have clarified this:

In these circumstances they would have to refer the quotation to the insurer who then underwrites the risk accordingly. Offer of a quotation is at the discretion of the insurance company.

So what they are saying is this has nothing to do with the underwriter, and the insurer decides if they will accept the risk.

I have additionally asked in the person's experience I am receiving this information from, after how many years do insurers tend to disregard bankruptcy? I am not sure I will get any sort of answer, but Brit appear to be very helpful so far.

4$£&*(£$&*(!

Here is an update, bit mixed but I am generally upbeat.

I will reproduce the letter for you all to read and digest, then your opinions are welcomed.

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When I last wrote to you, I explained that when we receive data protection complaints, our obligation is to make an assessment. An assessment is the Information Commissioner's view about whether an organisation has followed the rules of good practice for handling information in the Data Protection Act 1998 (the DPA).

I also explained that our aim is to ensure that organisations deal with personal information properly in the future. Our assessment decisions can help us to decide whether we should take action against a particular organisation.

I apologise for the delay in responding to you; as we have discussed on the telephone as the three complaints you have raised all concern similar issues I have written to all three data controllers and have been waiting for the final response from BGL Limited prior to finalising my assessment. I received that response on January 22 and can now finalise my assessment.

Our decision

In this case we have decided that it is likely that BGL, Uswitch and Performance Direct ("PD") have complied with the requirements of the DPA.

This is because each of the data controllers has provided us with a response as to why they consider that the data collected relating to the bankruptcy of your partner is relevant for the purposes for which it is processed (providing a quotation for home insurance cover).

PD has explained that it is an independent insurance intermediary, that is they work with and administer insurance policies on behalf of insurers and are responsible for capturing all necessary information required by insurers to facilitate provision of insurance.

They explain that they use a standard quotation software program used by many other insurers and intermediaries. They understand that the question regarding bankruptcy is used by insurers to identify a "moral hazard". They consider that you providing further information would not have resulted in you being offered cover as the software question demanded a simple yes/no answer to be passed on to insurers.

Uswitch explained that they are an insurance intermediary and are also owners of the brand Cover Direct. Their website does not dismiss bankruptcy out of hand but instead asks customers to contact them to discuss specific needs.

They explain that Brit Insurance (the company that originally denied you cover) did take into account both the date of your partner's bankruptcy and the fact that it had been dismissed in line with its normal criteria. Criteria used include when the bankruptcy occurred, the circumstances and whether it was due to business or personal reasons. They explain that had normal processes been followed by Cover Direct (who you are now insured with) then this brand too would have declined to insure your home.

BGL have explained that they too act as an insurance intermediary. The questions they ask on their websites are an amalgamation of the requirements of a number of insurance underwriters. The need of insurance underwriters to ask questions is balanced against the requirements of customers to keep questions to a minimum, ensure clarity with yes/no answers etc.

BGL explain that the actual relevance of each question will vary from insurer to insurer.

They explain that it is not practicable to phrase questions on the website to reflect each insurer's specific requirements; the wat the question is phrased catches the maximum number of insurers to return a quote. It is also only asked on quotes for relevant insurance products; for example the question is not asked at all for car insurance quotations.

BGL also point out that many insurers use information from credit reference files to inform their decision making and this would include details of your partner's bankruptcy. BGL have informed you previously that they will pass your concerns on to their colleagues who deal engage directly with BGL's underwriting partners.

BGL finally explain that if insurers or insurance providers informed BGL that they needed to know more specific information regarding an applicant's bankruptcy history then they would be able to review the questions asked.

In light of all of the above, we do not recommend that BGL, Uswitch or PD need take any further action in relation to this particular matter.

However, as your concerns are wide ranging and relate to general insurance industry practice I have sought advice from our Policy Delivery department regarding your concerns.

My colleagues consider that a key point is that the Information Commissioner clearly cannot go too far in dictating how insurance companies build their risk evaluation models and what type of information is, or is not, relevant for them to take into account when setting premiums.

In your specific case the bankruptcy was not yours (so is arguably not your personal data), discharged fairly recently and relates to someone living at your address. In other cases the bankruptcy could for example have been discharged 20 years ago or relate to a family member that does not live at the address.

Although these broader points do not relate to your specific concerns, our strategic liaison department have suggested that they could raise the general issues with the Association of British Insurers to clarify how the insurance industry generally justifies asking these questions. My strategic liaison department could then consider how to pursue this decision if they did not feel that the justification was adequate.

On the basis set out above, I will now be closing our cases in this matter, many thanks for bringing these issues to our attention.
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I have written back briefly thanking the case officer for their review and asking to be linked with the strategic liaison department so I can be updated.

Now we need someone like Martin to get involved so he can get in with the discussion the ICO has with the ABI. Martin/other MSE staff can you help?

4$£&*(£$&*(!

I'm now trying to push forward with lobbying the ABI, I have written to the Director's office outlining the practice of ABI members, how it can disadvantage a bankrupt for years after their discharge, how it can affect their families etc. and asking for a policy change. My suggestion to ABI is to use the same six-year industry standard the credit reference agencies do for bankruptcy, then after that six years disregard bankruptcy as a risk factor.

The Director also was key in contributing to the FSA's 'Treating Customers Fairly' formation and I have pointed out a change in ABI policy would build on this enormously. I am very hopeful of a development with this.

I have also emailed Martin to keep him posted, he is a little busy to take on this campaign right now but has asked if I get in touch with the MSE News team which I have.

I will let people know when I get a response from the ABI, thanks everyone for all the hard work you have all done on this so far. It was always going to be a case of in for the long haul with this, I am ever hopeful if we all keep chipping away we will change the stance on insurance for bankrupts.

Worcsman

CitySlicker wrote: »

I'm now trying to push forward with lobbying the ABI, I have written to the Director's office outlining the practice of ABI members, how it can disadvantage a bankrupt for years after their discharge, how it can affect their families etc. and asking for a policy change. My suggestion to ABI is to use the same six-year industry standard the credit reference agencies do for bankruptcy, then after that six years disregard bankruptcy as a risk factor.

The Director also was key in contributing to the FSA's 'Treating Customers Fairly' formation and I have pointed out a change in ABI policy would build on this enormously. I am very hopeful of a development with this.

I have also emailed Martin to keep him posted, he is a little busy to take on this campaign right now but has asked if I get in touch with the MSE News team which I have.

I will let people know when I get a response from the ABI, thanks everyone for all the hard work you have all done on this so far. It was always going to be a case of in for the long haul with this, I am ever hopeful if we all keep chipping away we will change the stance on insurance for bankrupts.

I have read thgis thread with interest, I dont have the time to comment on it all but I read with dismay the response from the EU MP that said he was too busy with his lunches to get involved, he span it as being a UK problem for UK MP's but we know what he meant, at least he was honest, albeit in a very parlimentary way.

I see it very differently, the EU human rights laws are very far reaching, they protect all kinds of criminals from lasting retribution. If a criminal has a human right to have their name removed from a list after a bar set by law, then a bankrupt does too. Maybe if the financial institutions were dragged to the human rights courts, they would take a different slant on this. Likewise the papers and others that keep lists of bankrupts and worse than keeping lists, share and distribute them. It should be a criminal act to do such a thing.

Just my thoughts, bravo cityslicker for your efforts, I have to say, you deserve a citizens award of some sort. Can I ask to what level did Martin get involved when you requested his help?

Worcsman

Less than 2% of views to this post resulted in a reply and we are all people who have an interest. It's going to be a very uphill battle trying to get our politicians to take note as they are ambivalent, that is they would like to care but cant be bothered. We give them our money, bankrupts and all. They are very comfy.

sizzler

Intresting fact 2%

At the end of the day its probably the last thing on most peoples minds:)

Compared to the grand scale of BR only certain things affect certain people and will only get anoyed or concernerned over what affects them the most.

I am for it but others may have more priorities:)

4$£&*(£$&*(!

Worcsman wrote: »

I have read thgis thread with interest, I dont have the time to comment on it all but I read with dismay the response from the EU MP that said he was too busy with his lunches to get involved, he span it as being a UK problem for UK MP's but we know what he meant, at least he was honest, albeit in a very parlimentary way.

I see it very differently, the EU human rights laws are very far reaching, they protect all kinds of criminals from lasting retribution. If a criminal has a human right to have their name removed from a list after a bar set by law, then a bankrupt does too. Maybe if the financial institutions were dragged to the human rights courts, they would take a different slant on this. Likewise the papers and others that keep lists of bankrupts and worse than keeping lists, share and distribute them. It should be a criminal act to do such a thing.

Just my thoughts, bravo cityslicker for your efforts, I have to say, you deserve a citizens award of some sort. Can I ask to what level did Martin get involved when you requested his help?

Thank you very much for this post, I do feel sometimes like a bit of a 'lone ranger' amidst all of this. Ultimately I think recording bankruptcies on the Gazettes is an outdated mode of operation and I would have no issue with a record being kept for six years then that to be destroyed. I can understand groups like the Insolvency Service keeping a lifetime record as they would need to under current legislation; but where this affects things like household insurance quotes it is very unfair.

When I contacted Martin he said he is a bit campaigned out but said he thinks it is something the MSE News team should definitely cover, so I emailed them. It was a little disappointing I admit, but I do appreciate Martin has to pick his fights carefully and I am not automatically entitled to his help just because I am supporting a cause. I am hoping if I get more progress with the ABI I will get more support. I have not yet heard back from MSE News team.

I am wondering on a couple of areas, firstly if I can get a big consumer group like Which? behind me. Does the Human Rights Act apply? I am reluctant to start quoting that because I feel too many people say 'it's my Human Rights' at the smallest thing, but if the insurers refuse to budge perhaps it is something I do need to consider.

Again I am wondering if this could qualify for a 'super-complaint' by the OFT as an area of effective insurance protectionism? I would need to see how I can submit evidence to the OFT and that would be a lot of work. The ABI knows what its members do so I do not need this evidence, the OFT I would need to start trawling insurers to provide hard evidence what percentage of the market is potentially affected.

Would this be something a barrister or solicitor can take up on a wider cause as 'pro bono' work? Could I approach universities to see if final year legal students would consider this part of their work?

Would it be appropriate for me to approach centre-left newspapers like the Guardian who occasionally cover consumer battles? I would not want them to act on my behalf, I would want them to cover my fight so far, its high points, its low points, what I plan for the future, how it will affect people. Guardian readers love stories like this (or the Observer possibly).

Lots of ideas, I think some of my posts have gone to a certain level here that people may now be put off replying as the issues are vast, the communications are now complex, my head hurts and I'm not benefiting in any way from this so far. I don't intend to make a penny out of doing any of this apart from getting cheaper household insurance quotes, but there have been a few times when I have wondered is all of this effort worth it? I don't intend to give up now from all the time I have invested though.

4$£&*(£$&*(!

sizzler wrote: »

Intresting fact 2%

At the end of the day its probably the last thing on most peoples minds:)

Compared to the grand scale of BR only certain things affect certain people and will only get anoyed or concernerned over what affects them the most.

I am for it but others may have more priorities:)

Absolutely. My argument is however this will affect all bankrupts, and everyone they will ever share the same address with for the rest of their lives when it comes to a vast number of household insurers. The effects will be increased premiums for years and years.

At the time of bankruptcy yes this is the last thing on everyone's mind. The phone calls finally stop, the letters cease, the panic melts away. It is the years that follow when people need to get angry at what I see as a very big injustice, and I hope as people see how big this issue is, how long it will affect them for, and that it will not just affect them but everyone at their home, they will start to get angry too and join this cause.