Southwest trains penalty fare

shtove

Here's the deal:

I got to my station at 11.10 for an 11.30 train intending to buy a return ticket, and noticed a train was due at 11.13 that would take me to my connecting station, Southampton.

The 11.13 pulled in, the guard got out, and I asked him if I could buy a ticket on board. He said yes, so I got on. When he got round to me, it turned out his credit card machine was on the blink - he tried it twice - and I hadn't enough cash, so he told me to buy the ticket at Southampton. I asked him if it would cause problems, and he said, "Why would it?" Fair enough.

Got off at Southampton and went to the barriers to buy the ticket. The station guard said ok, and asked if my originating station had been open. I said yes, and explained the situation as above. He said he wasn't "party to" the conversation with the train guard, and gave me an option: buy a single ticket or suffer a penalty fare.

"So I have to pay for two singles, out and in?"
"Yes."
"But ..."
"Unless you want the penalty fare."

I ended up paying £32 for a 100 mile round trip, and I want half that money back.

As I understand it, the train guard gave me permission to travel without a valid ticket and the station guard therefore had no right to penalise me.

Am I in the right or the wrong?

And what do I do about it?

I have the SWT complaint form, but wonder if I should just go straight to the regulator and cut out the waffle.

shtove

im_great wrote: »

oh dear oh dear

Thanks. Veeery helpful.

hemophobic

You should have taken the fine! I went from Dorchester to Bournemouth with no ticket, at the station they caught me and all my friends ( we never intending on buying tickets ). I just said I had no cash to pay, a police man got involved and took all our details and gave us all a £20 fine ( i think ). I got a few letters which I ignored and havent heard from them since. THis was about 2 years ago.

lufcgirl

Here (in the North-East) I thought that if you didn't buy a ticket prior to travel, the conductor would charge you the full either single or open return anyway. That is of course unless the station your boarding doesn't have a ticket desk.

Only reason I know that is that they won't let me use a railcard on a train I always have to buy the ticket prior to travel and thought it was the case everywhere now.

fatbelly

Info from CAB:

Railway penalty fares

In some areas, railway operators can impose a penalty fare on a passenger who travels without the correct ticket. This takes the form of an on the spot penalty above the normal fare. The penalty fare is not a fine. If the fare the client should have paid is less than £5 then the penalty fare will be £10. If the fare was over £5 then the penalty fare will be double the fare.

Railway companies imposing penalty fares have been instructed by the Rail Regulator to ensure that passengers:-

• are fully informed about what constitutes a valid ticket or permit to travel and the penalty that will be imposed before entering a penalty area or boarding a train subject to penalty fares; and
  
• should not be penalised if there was no opportunity to buy a ticket or permit to travel.

A passenger who is asked to pay a penalty fare must be told the reason for the penalty and that s/he has a right to appeal. If the passenger pays the penalty, s/he can still appeal against it and must do so within 21 days.

If a passenger refuses to pay the penalty on the spot, the company employee (usually known as a revenue protection officer) will tell her/him that s/he has 21 days in which to pay the charge or to appeal against it. If the passenger refuses to pay the penalty fare, the revenue protection officer has the authority to ask for her/his name and address and to check this on a database by radio. If the passenger refuses to give the information, the officer can request assistance from the British Transport Police. It is a criminal offence to refuse to provide a correct name and address.

It is not a criminal offence to refuse to pay the penalty fare. However, if a passenger refuses to do so, or if s/he pays the original fare but refuses to pay the difference, s/he can be taken to a civil court to pay the outstanding amount.

Grounds for appeal

A passenger may want to appeal against having to pay a penalty fare if there was:-

• insufficient notice that s/he was travelling in a penalty fare area because, for example, signs were inadequate, English is not her/his first language or s/he was unable to read the notices because s/he is visually impaired
  
• inadequate opportunity to buy a ticket or permit to travel because, for example, there was a long queue at the ticket office and no ticket machine was available, or s/he was unable to use a ticket machine because of a physical disability.

A client who wants to appeal against the imposition of a penalty fare should appeal to the Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service

If the outcome of the Penalty Fares Appeals Service is unsatisfactory, the client can take the complaint to her/his local RPC.

Mike_21

My first ever post

South West trains use a seperate company called 'Independent Revenue Collection and Support Ltd' (ircas.co.uk) to administer penalty fares and also process appeals.

All train operating companies (that issue penalty fares) have to comply with something called the 'Penalty Fares Rules 2002' and the full rules can be found by googling Penalty Fare Rules 2002 (for some reason - they wont let me post this with a web link!!!!)

In chapter 7 of these rules - 'Circumstances in which a penalty fare may not be charged', section 4d states

a penalty fare may not be charged when...'a person acting, or appearing to act, on behalf of the operator of the relevant train or of that station indicated that the person was, or people generally were, allowed to board that train or enter the compulsory ticket area without a ticket or other authority to do so.'

So... you shouldnt have been charged a penalty fare!

and should have just been allowed to buy a ticket at the station... I would definately write to SWT, not fair that you had to buy two singles!

shtove

Got a result on this.

Wrote to SWT with the details and got fobbed off. They clearly didn't bother talking to the two guards involved and didn't really consider the merits of the complaint.

They also passed the details to the train company that runs the connection to my final destination, who wrote back saying it was nothing to do with them.

Anyway, I uploaded the details on the Passenger Focus website, and two weeks later I got a call to say they'd secured £20 in travel vouchers from SWT and there was an investigation going on.

I rang the PF guy to see if I could get some info on SWT's crappy policies, but he reckoned the case was unusual and couldn't say much more. Overall, PF were very easy to use and effective.

Sorted!