verbal agreement and the court.

screwball

just over a year ago, my husband rented a truck from a "friend".. he paid £1400 deposit and then made monthly payments.. on the verbal agreement that if we ever gave the truck back, or couldnt pay, he would keep whatever from the deposit in lieu of money due to him.

We asked for this to be put in writing, but this was never done.

Due to money difficulties and never receiving anything in writing, we gave the truck back and agreed he would keep the deposit and we'd call it quits.

The "friend" has now taken us to court and isnt acknowledging the £1400 deposit and is requesting more in "non paid rental payments"

any help please ?? is this legally binding even though we asked for it in writing and never received it ??
many thanks for any advice

montyrebel

Verbal agreements are not worth the paper they are written on

pendulum

She does admit she had an agreement to rent the truck though
She is admitting to missing payments that she should have made (because she said she let the truck owner keep the deposit to cover the missed payments... so that's an admission there were missed payments & did have a rental agreement)

So she acknowledges an agreement was in place and she could not keep up the payments and did miss some, so the truck owner does not have to prove that.

He claims she did not leave a deposit to cover the debt (missed payments)
She claims she did leave a deposit to cover the debt (missed payments) so does not owe any money any longer

I think the burden may be on her to prove she left the £1400 deposit as most people would get proof of that if they did. Truck owner denies it.

None of the following: the rental agreement, the fact she missed payments, or the fact she did owe money, is under dispute, is it?

Only thing in dispute is whether she paid the debt (by letting him keep the deposit she says she gave) or not.

pendulum

How much is truck owner suing for?
How long did you have truck whilst not paying? It must have been quite a few missed payments (totalling how much??), to happily allow him to keep the £1400 deposit you say you gave him and call it quits?

You weren't renting to buy or something were you? Just renting to hire?

TellTheTruth_2

First of all, is this "friend" who has turned out not to be a "friend" a business? A truck hiring company? Or is he just somebody who happens to own a truck and decided to "rent it out" or more really if he is not a business "lend it out" for a bit of cash? (Read and understand where I am going to with this one).

If he is a business then it is one thing as it is his living making money that way. IF he is just an owner who "lent the truck for a bit of cash" then it is his word against yours.

And I live on a very simple system: You are good to me and help me out then I will return the favour 10 times over. You try to be nasty with me, you have just reincarnated the devil and you are going to see hell.

Cos if he is not a business and he is trying to con you, the first thing I would do is write him a letter, (make sure to send it recorded) asking him for a copy of the rental agreement with your signature on showing what deposit was made, and how much was the rental for per month and the rest of the agreement, and also requesting a copy of his declaration of the income to the Inland Revenue because if he is renting something out, it becomes a declareable income otherwise he is defrauding Her Majestys Customs and Revenue. AND if this "friend" happens to be signing on for work............... then as to whether or not he has declared the money to the local Social Services as an income because otherwise he is defrauding the State and is liable to a fine and/or a prison sentence.

Otherwise, it becomes a mutual agreement where he lent a truck out, you had to ensure you were properly insured to drive it and you offered to make a "donation" as a "thank you" gesture. And I would not enter into deposit, how owed money, how offered to keep the deposit or anything. He is the one making the Court Application. Then the onus falls on him to prove the agreement and breach of agreement. Anybody can say "You owe me". The reply is "Prove it".

Sometimes, the less you say, the better.

Nick Smith

screwball

the payments were 500 a month.. we missed 2 but there was also a little scratch on the truck that needed repairing.

he runs a uniform printing business, leased the truck, then couldnt afford it so offered to let us rent it.

pitkin2020

good advice above,

just out of interest why would you pay anyone even a friend £1400 without a receipt you must be mad,

good luck, i think your only hope is that he isn't declaring it as an income, if so he will soon drop if he thinks you will go to court with it

TellTheTruth_2

If you want it: Specimen letter

At the top: Your name and address

Mr A B Other
xxx
xxx
xxx
xxx (address)

27 July 2009

By Recorded Mail

Dear Mr A B Other

I refer you to the County Court Summons you have issued against me alleging you are owed £xxxxxxxxx.

In the first instance, as this summons has a date of 00/00/2009 by which time I have to reply, I have to give you X days to reply to this letter so I can answer the summons in time. Failure to answer to this letter, I will attach a copy of this letter to the summons whereby declaring that there is no agreement between us whatsoever and asking the Court to find that There is No Case to Answer.

As you are declaring that you rented the truck out compared to Lending, please send me a copy of the duly signed agreement regarding this rental. Said agreement (to be legally binding by Law) has to have at least the conditions, states what deposit has to be made, what is the monthly payment for the rental and what conditions there are for breach of agreement. Furthermore, it has to show my signature on it.

As you are also declaring that this was a rental, this then makes it an income. Therefore please also send me proof that these rentals of your truck are declared to Her Majestys Inland Revenue as an income. I am sure that you will agree with me that failure to declare this income will constitute fraud against Her Majesty.

If you cannot send me the above requested, then it means you are not "Renting" the truck but you "loaned" the truck as a favour. Hence loaning something as a favour, does not become an income and is as per mutual agreement (usually that have to ensure the driver is fully insured and that no damage is done to the vechile) and considering it is not an income, then it becomes "token payment" namely and such like (and to give an example) "buy you a couple of pints to show appriciation" or "give you £10 or say £20 to buy yourself and your wife a couple of drinks on the weekend to show appriciation" for the favour done. Indeed, I recall that you had stated that you were in financial difficulties and could not afford the rental of the truck. I happened to need one at the time. So we made a mutual agreement to help each other by my taking over the rental price for the time I needed said vechile. Incidentally, if you wish to claim that you did indeed rent the truck to us, then please send a copy of the Lease agreement that you took out when you originally hired the truck for your personal use showing confirmation that you can INDEED hire the truck to third parties for profit.

I wait for your reply and I once again refer you to the fact that your reply is awaited by the 00/00/2009.

Yours sincerely



Nick Smith

Note: X days = date on summons by time to reply to court less say 5 days to allow time to compose your reply and send it to the court

TellTheTruth_2

screwball wrote: »

the payments were 500 a month.. we missed 2 but there was also a little scratch on the truck that needed repairing.

Is there any contract regarding this "rental"? I do not think there is any contract/agreement. In fact, I would take it that it was a MUTUAL agreement to HELP EACHOTHER OUT. (Caps are for empahasis).

He needed a favour. You needed a favour. He had the truck. You needed a truck. You helped him out and he helped you out. Makes it a Mutual favour.

screwball wrote: »

he runs a uniform printing business, leased the truck, then couldnt afford it so offered to let us rent it.

Once again, looks like a mutual favour to me. He went in too deep. Could not afford it. You bailed him out and in the meantime borrowed a truck. AND........ did he have the authority to release the truck to somebody else? In fact, in my letter specimen underneath, I am going to add this........

Nick Smith

pendulum

No doubt it would be in your interest to not reveal in court a lot of what you have put here
Most of what you said was an "admission" and it works for the truck owner

He has no proof you had a rental agreement or missed payments. But you admit you did, so you are his proof!

I would listen to TellTheTruth and possibly "reconsider your position"

But the court papers are filed and if it proceeds you have to be ready
You will be asked if you had a rental agreement, you will be asked how many payments you missed by the judge. What are you going to say? Hopefully not what you said here!

Telling the truth may work against you
But not everyone can lie in court

TBH My "feeling" is you did not give him the 1400, as not many people sue to scam someone, I think you had the truck, missed 2 payments due to your financial situation, couldn't pay, he wanted his money, to protect yourself you had to say "what about the 1400 I gave you? Keep that". He says there was no 1400 and strangely you have no proof there was. Also as you were friends at the time I can believe there was no deposit

Any proof at all of this 1400 e.g. bank withdrawal for that sum? How did you pay, conveniently by cash?

That's just my opinion
Don't be offended

Tozer

TellTheTruth wrote: »

If you want it: Specimen letter

At the top: Your name and address

Mr A B Other
xxx
xxx
xxx
xxx (address)

27 July 2009

By Recorded Mail

Dear Mr A B Other

I refer you to the County Court Summons you have issued against me alleging you are owed £xxxxxxxxx.

In the first instance, as this summons has a date of 00/00/2009 by which time I have to reply, I have to give you X days to reply to this letter so I can answer the summons in time. Failure to answer to this letter, I will attach a copy of this letter to the summons whereby declaring that there is no agreement between us whatsoever and asking the Court to find that There is No Case to Answer.

As you are declaring that you rented the truck out compared to Lending, please send me a copy of the duly signed agreement regarding this rental. Said agreement (to be legally binding by Law) has to have at least the conditions, states what deposit has to be made, what is the monthly payment for the rental and what conditions there are for breach of agreement.

As you are also declaring that this was a rental, this then makes it an income. Therefore please also send me proof that these rentals of your truck are declared to Her Majestys Inland Revenue as an income. I am sure that you will agree with me that failure to declare this income will constitute fraud against Her Majesty.

If you cannot send me the above requested, then it means you are not "Renting" the truck but you "loaned" the truck as a favour. Hence loaning something as a favour, does not become an income and is as per mutual agreement (usually that have to ensure the driver is fully insured and that no damage is done to the vechile) and considering it is not an income, then it becomes "token payment" namely and such like (and to give an example) "buy you a couple of pints to show appriciation" or "give you £10 or say £20 to buy yourself and your wife a couple of drinks on the weekend to show appriciation" for the favour done. Incidentally, if you wish to claim that you did indeed rent the truck to us, then please send a copy of the Lease agreement that you took out when you originally hired the truck for your personal use showing confirmation that you can INDEED hire the truck to third parties for profit.

I wait for your reply and I once again refer you to the fact that your reply is awaited by the 00/00/2009.

Yours sincerely



Nick Smith

Not so sure this works.

1. Civil courts do not have the power to declare no case to answer. That is criminal law terminlogy. OP could apply to strike out but Courts very rarely allow such actions. Besides, it will cost more to apply to strike than to defend.

2. The OP should file a defence irrespective of the responses to any letter. If necessary a "Request for Further Particulars" can be made.

3. It is not correct that an agreement has to set out certain conditions to be binding in law. A verbal agreement is of equal standing although evidentially much weaker.

4. OP is not entitled to any income tax details. It is not for OP to determine any fraud.