Charging Order? The myth

eggbox

Land_Registry wrote: »

No error - the website will confirm that the plot/address is registered as it is still, along with several other adjoining plots, still part of the developer's title. No application to register the transfer of that plot/property has yet been submitted

Thanks LRR.

As I previously explained; the house concerned has been occupied for quite a while and there is definitely a mortgage on the property?

Therefore, I'm struggling to understand how the new owners details wouldn't yet be registered or the properties address as shown on the title search?

Land_Registry

eggbox wrote: »

Thanks LRR.

As I previously explained; the house concerned has been occupied for quite a while and there is definitely a mortgage on the property?

Therefore, I'm struggling to understand how the new owners details wouldn't yet be registered or the properties address as shown on the title search?

Simple answer is that IF that is the case then they have yet to apply to register their purchase/mortgage. IF there is definitely a mortgage then their lender should be very twitchy about it not yet being registered in their names and their loan properly secured

eggbox

Thanks LRR

The property has definitely been purchased as we have the estate agent sale details. In the (unlikely) event we've got it wrong about the mortgage it would be purchased for cash so the owners details are missing in any event it would appear?

Land_Registry

eggbox wrote: »

Thanks LRR

The property has definitely been purchased as we have the estate agent sale details. In the (unlikely) event we've got it wrong about the mortgage it would be purchased for cash so the owners details are missing in any event it would appear?

Missing as in they have yet to register their purchase, yes.

EA sale details merely confirm it is For Sale though or do you mean something else?
If they are saying it's been Sold then that could be the case but for whatever reason the purchase has not been registered.

eggbox

Hi LRR

The EA info was to highlight its a separate property that has been up for sale. The people living there owe for an order for work submitted, for the property concerned, and the tradesman concerned is after their first names in order to make a claim?

I tried to help by saying he could get details from the LR but, as we've discovered, they aren't showing?

martini3804

Land_Registry wrote: »

There's nothing we can usefully add really as you seem to have the registered details and are now trying to follow the chain of events since to unravel whether the order still exists.

My reaction would always be to pursue it with the court but it reads as if that has been exhausted as they cannot find any details

As the CO is registered as an equitable charge we would need a completed form CN1 plus supporting evidence that the CO had been dismissed for example the order with the receipt of the monies endorsed or a form DS1 discharging it. To get those though you need the creditor to assist

The other thread includes useful posts re points of contact and it seems you are trying all possibilities. That appears to be the logical next step.

eggbox may have some thoughts re Egg (no pun intended) and wider awareness?

Hi Land Registry,


For the last couple of months both myself and my solicitor have been tirelessly trying to find who the owner of this Egg charging order now is to attempt to get a redemption. We also contacted Shoosmiths who acted on behalf of Egg back in 2011 and with a SAR they sent us a full pack. That has also proven to lead to a dead end. The court have no records due to the time lapse. I have never received a letter from a debt collection agency, EVER.


I now find myself in a very difficult position. My house is sold, but cant complete until either a redemption is found or this charge is removed. We have been to Yorkshire Building Society, Barclays, Citibank, Canada Square.


None of them have any debts or record of any debts in my name, address, DOB, old egg account number or indeed the court reference number.


I have contacted your customer services several times but again they keep telling me to go to YBS which I have done.


Can you please help? The situation is bad enough that I could soon lose my buyer, but even if that did happen it in theory means I have a house which is simply un sellable because until this charge is removed we would simply go around the same story.


What steps can I now take, I am really out of ideas now as is my Solicitor.


Thanks in advance...

Land_Registry

martini3804 wrote: »

Hi Land Registry,

For the last couple of months both myself and my solicitor have been tirelessly trying to find who the owner of this Egg charging order now is to attempt to get a redemption. We also contacted Shoosmiths who acted on behalf of Egg back in 2011 and with a SAR they sent us a full pack. That has also proven to lead to a dead end. The court have no records due to the time lapse. I have never received a letter from a debt collection agency, EVER.

I now find myself in a very difficult position. My house is sold, but cant complete until either a redemption is found or this charge is removed. We have been to Yorkshire Building Society, Barclays, Citibank, Canada Square.

None of them have any debts or record of any debts in my name, address, DOB, old egg account number or indeed the court reference number.

I have contacted your customer services several times but again they keep telling me to go to YBS which I have done.

Can you please help? The situation is bad enough that I could soon lose my buyer, but even if that did happen it in theory means I have a house which is simply un sellable because until this charge is removed we would simply go around the same story.

What steps can I now take, I am really out of ideas now as is my Solicitor.

Thanks in advance...

What's the title number please? And what's YBS? I can guess the latter but would prefer your understanding - many thanks

And what did you do in 2011 and beyond when you became aware of the entry in the register?

I assume eggbox had no previous experience to share re this scenario?

martini3804

Land_Registry wrote: »

What's the title number please? And what's YBS? I can guess the latter but would prefer your understanding - many thanks

And what did you do in 2011 and beyond when you became aware of the entry in the register?

I assume eggbox had no previous experience to share re this scenario?

Hi Land Registry,


The title number is BM354499


I was never aware I had a Charging Order until I tried to sell my house. I was living overseas from December 2010 until October 2015, so clearly Shoosmiths took me to court without my knowledge.


From memory, this must date back to an old Egg debt from 2004.


YBS is Yorkshire Building Society


Surely there must be something that can be done in this scenario. I am not trying to shirk an old debt but the reality is nobody is claiming it.

Land_Registry

martini3804 wrote: »

Hi Land Registry,

The title number is BM354499

I was never aware I had a Charging Order until I tried to sell my house. I was living overseas from December 2010 until October 2015, so clearly Shoosmiths took me to court without my knowledge.

From memory, this must date back to an old Egg debt from 2004.

YBS is Yorkshire Building Society

Surely there must be something that can be done in this scenario. I am not trying to shirk an old debt but the reality is nobody is claiming it.

Many thanks and apologies for not linking YBS to the obvious longer wording.

A few things spring to mind but shared in an effort to help understand your position better but also to see if others can advise. As already posted and advised in your direct contact with us what we can do is limited to dealing with the entry and removal of the charge on the land register. We can't and don't advise or deal with the debt and how you discharge it or prove it is no longer legally binding

I can see that we exchanged correspondence with you in 2011 when you were advised as to how the order had come about and a copy of the interim charging order was provided.

That interim order referred to a judgement or order given in 2008 under the reference you quote in your post. So presumably there was a CCJ against you at the time - was there and have you confirmed those details? Or was there nothing that connected the debt to the court action in 2011?

You post that you are not trying to shirk it but nobody is claiming it, which implies you accept the debt is a real one or are you only of the view that it exists because the register/interim court order says it does?

You contacted us in 2018 which resulted in the advice/guidance you refer to namely you need to work back through the debt/creditor details as appropriate.

You mention that they have no records due to the time lapse so how long do they keep records for? And if they keep records for longer did you show the court the copy order?

As I understand matters the charging order can remain in play for many years as the creditor is effectively waiting for your to pay the debt or sell your home and then pay the debt.
eggbox - does the court have the power to set aside the order if a debtor can demonstrate that they cannot find the creditor?

In my view the next step all depends on what you have done with YBS and whether you have exhausted their procedures. You say you have been to them but if that means you went to a branch or rang or wrote to them and got a flat No record response I think you should escalate it through their complaints procedure and press that with them.

My reading of it is that the debt existed and still exists but the creditor (YBS) has not investigated it sufficiently to either confirm the debt is not theirs to collect or otherwise

martini3804

Land_Registry wrote: »

Many thanks and apologies for not linking YBS to the obvious longer wording.

A few things spring to mind but shared in an effort to help understand your position better but also to see if others can advise. As already posted and advised in your direct contact with us what we can do is limited to dealing with the entry and removal of the charge on the land register. We can't and don't advise or deal with the debt and how you discharge it or prove it is no longer legally binding

I can see that we exchanged correspondence with you in 2011 when you were advised as to how the order had come about and a copy of the interim charging order was provided.

That interim order referred to a judgement or order given in 2008 under the reference you quote in your post. So presumably there was a CCJ against you at the time - was there and have you confirmed those details? Or was there nothing that connected the debt to the court action in 2011?

You post that you are not trying to shirk it but nobody is claiming it, which implies you accept the debt is a real one or are you only of the view that it exists because the register/interim court order says it does?

You contacted us in 2018 which resulted in the advice/guidance you refer to namely you need to work back through the debt/creditor details as appropriate.

You mention that they have no records due to the time lapse so how long do they keep records for? And if they keep records for longer did you show the court the copy order?

As I understand matters the charging order can remain in play for many years as the creditor is effectively waiting for your to pay the debt or sell your home and then pay the debt.
eggbox - does the court have the power to set aside the order if a debtor can demonstrate that they cannot find the creditor?

In my view the next step all depends on what you have done with YBS and whether you have exhausted their procedures. You say you have been to them but if that means you went to a branch or rang or wrote to them and got a flat No record response I think you should escalate it through their complaints procedure and press that with them.

My reading of it is that the debt existed and still exists but the creditor (YBS) has not investigated it sufficiently to either confirm the debt is not theirs to collect or otherwise

Hi Land Registry,


Thanks for the comprehensive response and your summary sounds about right. I did have an old debt with egg back around 2004 / 2005 that I buried my head in the sand with (although it was for a significantly lower amount than the current charging order), clearly interest, legal fees etc. mount up. That aside, I now just want to deal with it, pay it if I can and have it removed.


I would assume the CCJ from 2008 is entirely why I now have this equitable charge, so they are both clearly connected.


In terms of what I have done with YBS, Citibank / Canada Square is sent them a written subject access request using the old Egg Banking account number (this is all I have).


I also did the same with Shoosmiths.


In summary, they have all come back with nothing saying they have no record of any account or debt in my name under this account number.


Northampton County Court no longer even have records of the actual claim using their own court reference number.

So again, I am back to square one. I appreciate your comments that creditors will sit with CO's for a long time, well in my opinion this now is a long time. Coming up for 9 years. I am happy to pay it, but who on earth can I pay it to if nobody is able to provide me with a redemption figure or even anything to say they even have anything on record.


You can see my dilemma?


At some point, the Court or Land Registry will have to consider either setting this aside or removing the entry. Otherwise, as I have said in my earlier post, I in theory have a property which can never be sold. It just doesn't make sense.


Thanks