Deposit Dispute with LL

Broke_Student

Hi. I have recently moved out of my student house and have had deductions suggested from my LL which I disagree with. I'm not sure if he's taking me for a ride so wanted the opinions and knowledge of MSE members.

We have been charged £330 for professional cleaning services in a East London 3 bed home.
We cleaned the house up and down before we left but it appears we missed some bits (dust behind beds in 2 of 3 bedrooms), cleaning the shower screen, and a supposedly dirty oven (it was 2 weeks old and i washed the trays myself, don't know how it was possibly dirty). The LL described the property as 'very dirty'.

The day we moved in the property was VERY dirty and filthy. The LL/estate agents made a cockup and moved us in the day after the last tenants were supposed to move out but they overstayed and just ran out with their bits when we arrived (i moved their stuff in my mates van once the panic was over). The first 2 days were awful. We have photographs of the property at this stage.

To make up for this the LL hired cleaning services 2 days later. Does this count as the true 'state of property when we moved in'? Either way they did not do a spectacular job and they did not do the dust under the beds themselves (we have no photos to prove this) and missed a lot of small bits which we in fact cleaned ourselves (again when moving out). We also had to chuck out a lot of the old tenants bits as the cleaners obviously thought they were ours). We communicated this verbally to the LL at the time.

We disagree professional cleaning was needed (certainly not a FULL cleaning service).
We disagree with the the prices charged by the company used. £333 for this 'dusting' seriously?

Some more info:
- There was no check in/out inventory to my knowledge (no one remembers signing one and there are no photocopies in our possessions). All the LL has on the state of the property when we moved in is the cleaner's invoice (although they did not do as good a job as he thinks and therefore expected from us).
- The LL did not see us out so we did not have the chance to be told it is too dusty under beds whilst we were there.
- The LL did not give us the option to do the work ourselves.
- The LL did not give us a choice of cleaning company and thus we could not find ourselves the best deal. He simply had it done and is charging us £333 for this service.

What are your opinions on whether this is just and what my next move should be?

ps. personally I think the cleaning services owner is his mate (does all his properties) and had an easy time in my house (1 hour of cleaning?) and is laughing at my expence (although I cannot prove this).

Thanks loads,
Broke.

clutton_2

""There was no check in/out inventory to my knowledge (no one remembers signing one and there are no photocopies in our possessions)" if there is no inventory the LL will have a enormously difficult task to prove in court what condition the property was in when you moved in.

when did you move in ? when did you last sign a tenancy agreement ?

is your deposit in a deposit protection scheme ?

Broke_Student

clutton wrote: »

""There was no check in/out inventory to my knowledge (no one remembers signing one and there are no photocopies in our possessions)" if there is no inventory the LL will have a enormously difficult task to prove in court what condition the property was in when you moved in.
If the money is in a scheme then will they also favour against the LL not having an inventory, or is it just the courts that like to see inventories?

when did you move in ? when did you last sign a tenancy agreement ?
Moved in September 2008, moved out about 2 weeks ago

is your deposit in a deposit protection scheme ?

Yes, I think so. The contract states the LL will put the money into a scheme and contact us with the details within 14 days with the details. We were not contacted with details of the scheme and do not know exactly where the money is, but have no reason to believe it is not in a scheme. The deposit was paid to the agent (Ketaons) and I assume they passed it onto the LL or put it in a scheme for us?

Broke_Student

I have prepared the following e-mail. What do you think?

Dear LL,

After conferring with the other tenants we have decided that we share the following views:
- The cleaners which were used shortly into the tenancy did not fully clean dust behind/below bed frames (I removed a lot myself when moving one of the beds downstairs and back).
- A full professional cleaning service was not reasonable for removal of the dirt/dust claimed.
- The cost of the cleaning seems unreasonable based around the hourly rate for cleaning services in the area factored against the amount of work required we believe was required.
- The property was not inspected on move out and we therefore did not have the opportunity to remedy anything ourselves. Nor were we contacted prior to you arranging the cleaning service - we could have remedied things ourselves, found a choice providing the best deal, or objected to claims at the time.

Therefore we have decided to have the state of the property on moving in vs moving out judged by the Independent Complaints Examiner of the scheme with which our deposit is held and allow them to assess the true cost of removing the dust (I have not yet viewed your photos to comment on anything else).

Please will you contact us with details of the scheme with which our deposit is held. We were not notified of this within 14 days of it being registered as should have been done according to the contract.

I feel this is the correct decision taking into account the following:
- We spent a day cleaning and tidying the property + garden before moving out. We believed it to be of a reasonable domestic standard but subjectively may have missed certain parts/areas of which you have taken photos. The cleaners will have had a very easy time and in my opinion should not have invoiced you such a high amount or this should have been negotiated with them first.
- The cleaners used shortly into tenancy did not do a particularly spectacular job and missed out of sight areas. These we did ourselves at the time, and again we did these upon moving out (wiping inside the kitchen cupboards, inside the fridge properly, arranging glasses... We notified you of some of this verbally on your first visit.
- The previous tenants were living in the house on the day we moved in. We had to throw out a lot of their junk at our time expense even after the cleaners (they understandably could not distinguish what was our property).

I hope you agree the full professional cleaning service to be excessive/unnecessary and take on the cost as Landlord or make a counter settlement.
Otherwise please refer a dispute to the ICE of the scheme.


X (also on behalf of Y and Z).

clutton_2

its dreadfully long-winded - cant you shorten it and make it less emotive

Emma1973

SO if you didnt clean it properly, you dont think the LL should have hired professional cleaners to do it, who do you think should have done it?

slopemaster

You make some fair points but you need to make your e-mail much shorter, more matter-of-fact and to the point.
Take out things like
"To speed up the move in I moved the old tenants to their next property in a Transit van through my own arrangements. "
" you can understand why I feel hard done."
"If you agree with my views"
etc

Broke_Student

Emma1973 wrote: »

SO if you didnt clean it properly, you dont think the LL should have hired professional cleaners to do it, who do you think should have done it?

We cleaned it properly in my opinion. The landlord found dust behind/under beds which is unreasonable as it was in this state on move in and also after he had the cleaners come in (but he did not see this after).

Also a shower screen was not cleaned. I agree with this.

I do not think he should have hired professional cleaners no. I think he should have done it himself for free (out of courtesy it was a small amount, and he sort of 'owed us' favours which is not documented here).
Alternatively he should have given us the choice to hoover those strips ourselves and save £330.
If he was to hire cleaners then there was certainly no need to hire a full service.

clutton wrote: »

its dreadfully long-winded - cant you shorten it and make it less emotive

Thanks, i'm cutting it down (keep checking above and suggest any changes if i've missed bits).

slopemaster wrote: »

You make some fair points but you need to make your e-mail much shorter, more matter-of-fact and to the point.
Take out things like
"To speed up the move in I moved the old tenants to their next property in a Transit van through my own arrangements. "
" you can understand why I feel hard done."
"If you agree with my views"
etc

Ok. Is it worth trying let him see that in the past I incurred costs at his expense (i.e. he cocked up the move in so I arranged the old tenants to be moved) or is this begging too much?

clutton_2

landlords run a business - they are perfectly entitled to employ professionals to do any part of the work needed to run it - including cleaning property.

Jomo

Just one point:

You say 'in your opinion' the property had been cleaned properly, and it is exactly that, your opinion.

People have different ideas of what is good enough so you won't always agree to such things but I do agree that it does sound expensive. Unless they are in the habit of paying for that service no matter what. And they did pay for this service for when you moved in, even though it happened after the event.

These companies do tend to charge a hell of a lot of money...

Broke_Student

clutton wrote: »

landlords run a business - they are perfectly entitled to employ professionals to do any part of the work needed to run it - including cleaning property.

Agreed. It would be ridiculous to dispute that fact.
Landlords are not entitled to employ professionals to do any part of the work needed to a property at a tenants expense if the tenant is not responsible for the cost of that work.
If you you study my entire posts I am asking for opinions on my particular situation:
- He called in the cleaners because he found dust under/behind beds (+ a shower screen). When we moved in the property was in an outrageous condition because he cocked up the move in date. He had little choice but to hire professionals to do the place over asap. The professionals did not clear all dust from below/under beds either but the LL didn't check this before or after.
- I think it is unfair that he hired a full cleaning service at £330 for this. I am asking for opinions on is this is fair and if not, what should I do next?

Also, i'm unsure what technically counts as the state of the property when we moved in? Day 0 (filth) or days later when he had the cleaners come in?