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Martins View On Using Mortgage Brokers...

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  • MSE_Martin
    MSE_Martin Posts: 8,272 Money Saving Expert
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    dunstonh

    As you know, I set good store in your view. So perhaps you would like to help me out. Feel free to say no if you can't commit the time.

    I am happy to listen to a recommendation from you - having viewed what's on here

    1. On the issue of signatures
    2. On what guidance for brokers we can lay on the board for how to behave in a way that won't be seen as touting for business (im not suggesting people are - im suggesting how we protect people from being perceived as such when it isn't appropriate)

    Yet I would ask this is done with a view to the fact that people are entitled to an 'anti-broker' attitude and that free expression on here of that view point is important.

    If you would like to suggest some balanced recommendations I would be happy to listen. Perhaps we can start one thread on this (wider than the signature issue) and you can bring it together to do it. I will listen favourably.

    Yet I think this thread is a useful one to read. This is written after advice and lays out my position and the site's position on advice based info quite clearly.

    It quite deliberately implies a. Advisers cannot be held above others in terms of view and even if they could, that would involve checks on who the advisers are, something we can't do. b. That we can't referree over 'good or bad' advice, that simply isn't the site's role within a chat forum - and will always be the role of the invididual poster and we aim to keep the resource taken by abuse enquiries here to a minimum.

    I hope this is a reasonable compromise. My aim is to have this forum back to helping people with their issues to get the best mortgages, and avoid any nasty's lenders throw at them.

    Once we get some form of understanding (and i would invite non-brokers to engage in this too) then hopefully we can turn back to a smoother process.

    If you are not willing to take it on - i totally understand - and its not a problem - you just seem to be the right person for the job.

    Martin
    Martin Lewis, Money Saving Expert.
    Please note, answers don't constitute financial advice, it is based on generalised journalistic research. Always ensure any decision is made with regards to your own individual circumstance.
    Don't miss out on urgent MoneySaving, get my weekly e-mail at www.moneysavingexpert.com/tips.
    Debt-Free Wannabee Official Nerd Club: (Honorary) Members number 000
  • EdInvestor
    EdInvestor Posts: 15,749 Forumite
    If I may comment, from what I understand of the problem with the mortgage brokers specifically, it is not an argument about good or bad advice (as has occurred on the investment side).

    Rather it is that at any given time on a thread when the brokers are responding to a poster's query, one particular poster will intervene to "remind" readers that Martin has written a mortgage guide, and that this guide mentions the big nationwide brokers and in particular L &C.

    This is often accompanied by a comment from the poster about brokers who post here having a hidden agenda - the implication is they are all touting for business.

    Personally I find this poster's repeated interjections with the same comments quite irritating. He offers no help or advice himself, just posts these links repeatedly, in a way which seems to be an attempt to degrade the credibility of any advice or suggestions the brokers offer. Today he suggested the brokers were "grooming" Moneysavers.Frankly I though this insulted the intelligence of your readers.

    It doesn't seem to me that Moneysavers need repeated reminders that you write articles about mortgages or that industry people post on the site, especially as they all state their affiliation in their signatures.

    I am not sure why this particular poster has appointed himself chief policeman in the mortgage forum.No doubt he is a sincere individual with a genuine feeling that people are being conned or tricked.

    But IMHO his perception is incorrect and his activities are actually counter productive to his cause, as he comes across as a disruptive individual who seems to be trying to drive helpful people away.

    The problem seems to be one of "style" rather than "content".As I've said to the brokers, it would be best if they just ignored this fellow's repeated 'disclaimer-type' warnings.This however, seems difficult for a couple of them particularly and the problem crops up repeatedly.

    In the end it gets quite boring.
    Trying to keep it simple...;)
  • MSE_Martin
    MSE_Martin Posts: 8,272 Money Saving Expert
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Thanks Ed Investor, you've read more of this than I have. Frankly we all need to take a deep breath and a step back and work out what to do. I cannot afford someone to police every post here (and can we continue this in the new thread i've started on the matter)

    Martin
    Martin Lewis, Money Saving Expert.
    Please note, answers don't constitute financial advice, it is based on generalised journalistic research. Always ensure any decision is made with regards to your own individual circumstance.
    Don't miss out on urgent MoneySaving, get my weekly e-mail at www.moneysavingexpert.com/tips.
    Debt-Free Wannabee Official Nerd Club: (Honorary) Members number 000
  • AndrewSmith
    AndrewSmith Posts: 2,871 Forumite
    I cite from a personal perspective.
    MSE_Martin wrote:

    Whilst I support mortgage brokers, the complete one sided rent-seeking lobbying by brokers on this board is getting very close to making me think carefully about who I allow to post and why.

    Maybe this is not such a bad Idea Martin. Who would make the decision though? Something that would need to be carefully considered.
    This is a consumer forum. It is not here for industry lobbyists of any variety to make their point.

    This is the stance that I agree with and also consider myself a consumer who happens to have worked in mortagges for 13 years. Mortgages is not the only area of the site I visit and have myself found some excellent moneysaving ideas within the forums.
    Over the years there've been some wonderfully helpful brokers on here; and have been highly valued. Yet now all I seem to read is people who want to push their cause rather than help. That isn't what this forum is about.

    Agreed, which is why maybe we should simply abolish the idea of signatures etc altogether. That way there can be no accusation of 'touting'.
    Your petty disparaging remarks about "utilities are one thing" yet effectively "leave mortgages to the people who know" is offensive. Frankly I half wish I'd never supported brokers in the way I have due to all this carping.

    Sadly there will always be people who do not agree with everything you say Martin, as indeed we all are not agreed with all the time, however it would be a shame if the result of one remark were to impact your support of the concept of fees free brokers.
  • MSE_Martin wrote:
    Frankly we all need to take a deep breath and a step back and work out what to do. I cannot afford someone to police every post here (and can we continue this in the new thread i've started on the matter)

    Martin

    I think a moderator would help and I'm sure you could get someone, or maybe even 2 or 3 people to moderate the mortgage forums for nothing, financially.

    The issue ie touting for business, I think you have diplomatically stated your concern and would agree that this has to be aforethought in respect of your statements on these forums.

    I nominate the following 2 persons for forum moderation:

    1. Payless
    2. Kenshaz

    Andy
  • would you care to clarify your reasoning behind this Andrew?
    I am a Mortgage Adviser

    You should note that this site doesn't check my status as a mortgage adviser, so you need to take my word for it. This signature is here as I follow MSE's Mortgage Adviser Code of Conduct. Any posts on here are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as financial advice.
  • would you care to clarify your reasoning behind this Andrew?

    Sure. First, psychologically, a moderator will command some respect.

    Payless has been around long enough as a provider of solid and sound advice in respect of giving advice with no agenda. Given the permissions to do so he could remove posts that are deemed, or likely to be deemed, offensive. He could also 'correct' mispostings and misinformation. If he had the time I think he would be a great repesentative of the mortgage brokers.

    Kenshaz is not a broker so could represent the general public. I think he feels that the brokers are on here solely for personal gain. However, given some responsibility I'm sure he would respect the ethos of the site and refrain from from posting links to L&C, Charcol etc, who by the way, are all very well respected organisations. Credence has to be given where it's due, where kenshaz does fail is by not understanding that the client may want a more 'personal' level of service, allocation of more time by a smaller brokerage, which in turn generally leads to better advice and service standards.


    Andy.
  • Well I agree with your reasoning about Payless, he is well respected and obviously knows his stuff. But something similar to this has been discussed on the "a open note to mortgage brokers thread" where I suggested an industry professional was appointed to moderate boards and where necessary stop sitting ducks being targetted and misinformed - there were just too many reasons why it could not be done. As for Kenshaz monitoring on a consumer point, I do not think he would be a wise choice, as I don't believe he would find it easy to remain impartial. If that really were to happen, someone such as Ian W would be ideal, although he has not been around as much lately - he is a consumer with a good knowledge of mrotgage products, but not industry related whatsoever, and also takes things in good humour.
    I am a Mortgage Adviser

    You should note that this site doesn't check my status as a mortgage adviser, so you need to take my word for it. This signature is here as I follow MSE's Mortgage Adviser Code of Conduct. Any posts on here are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as financial advice.
  • kenshaz
    kenshaz Posts: 3,155 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture Combo Breaker
    Sure. First, psychologically, a moderator will command some respect.

    Payless has been around long enough as a provider of solid and sound advice in respect of giving advice with no agenda. Given the permissions to do so he could remove posts that are deemed, or likely to be deemed, offensive. He could also 'correct' mispostings and misinformation. If he had the time I think he would be a great repesentative of the mortgage brokers.

    Kenshaz is not a broker so could represent the general public. I think he feels that the brokers are on here solely for personal gain. However, given some responsibility I'm sure he would respect the ethos of the site and refrain from from posting links to L&C, Charcol etc, who by the way, are all very well respected organisations. Credence has to be given where it's due, where kenshaz does fail is by not understanding that the client may want a more 'personal' level of service, allocation of more time by a smaller brokerage, which in turn generally leads to better advice and service standards.


    Andy.


    I feel that helpwhereIcan is the most fair minded broker ,he has my respect,and has always remained impartial.He has been commended by Martin is objective and does not become emotional and defensive and protective .

    Payless is a the best of the rest,that is a compliment,and not meant to offend,he has also removed his links which gets my respect also .I also feel that even when he has created a situation he wants to talk about it,discuss it with me,and he will tell other brokers off when they are being emotional,state that it is not helping their argument .

    I have been discussed many times on this forum by other posts,so now it is my turn ,but I am being positive,and I am totally impartial,I feel that AndyWallace was very accurate and I take on board his comments regarding broker choice.
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To be happy you need to make someone happy.[/FONT]
  • EdInvestor
    EdInvestor Posts: 15,749 Forumite
    It would be very unwise to have industry people controlling information on the site.

    Much financaial information is a matter of opinion and judgment.Industry people have no monopoly on that and unfortunately the industry as a whole has a less than stellar reputation in terms of fairness and objectivity.

    Actually mortgage brokers, being comparatively new, are much less besmirched by the industry's well-known dire past record.

    They might be well advised to steer clear of those in other sectors, lest they are tarred by association with the same brush.
    Trying to keep it simple...;)
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