Redundancy - Consultation

pimento

There's a 1 in 4 chance I'll be made redundant in the next two or three weeks and I know that my company must consult with the four of us and let us know on what criteria they will be basing their decision, but two of us are going on (approved) annual leave at the end of next week and won't be back for two weeks in my case and three weeks in the other guy's case.

Can they do the whole thing while we're on leave, or do they have to speak with us first?

Up until this morning, they still couldn't tell us what the criteria will be and who will be on the panel deciding.

Any pointers before I go to see HR? I'm trying to stay under their radar.

Pete111

Well it's certainly not ideal to attempt a consultation when the potentially affected individual is away but it can be done via phone (I have done this the other month with an overseas employee) or even via email I guess (though that would be the last resort..)

Have you been given formal notification of being at risk of redundancy? If so it's worth speaking to HR to clarify timescales given your leave etc. If it's just rumour at this point you may want to keep quiet for now and ask the staff remaining on site to text you on holiday if anything kicks off.

pimento

Hi Pete. No, it's definite.

In a nutshell, they turned one of our four positions into a supervisory position, advertised it externally and told us that if one of us didn't get the job and an external candidate did, then one of us would have to go.
An external candidate got the job (we all also applied). There's a 10 day appeal process that two of the four of us will be taking (although not me) that finishes on the 23rd of July.
HR have told us that they will then immediately do a reverse merit excersize to get rid of one of us. They don't know what criteria to use because our current boss has done no appraisals on us in four years (everyone else in the company has them done annually) so there is nothing to measure it on. We've been told that they won't use sickness and attendance, nor will they use FILO.

I'm worried that it will turn into a popularity contest, which isn't right really.

Pete111

So...your colleagues are appealing the appointment of the external candidate? (ie they have rasied a grievance?)

Re the 4 into 3 Redundancy I think I recall this from an earlier thread? They should be running a formal redundancy consultation with you, part of which includes the selection process

You indicate they are doing the selection afterwards which seems a bit odd as until that is done they cannot confirm the redundancy....which is usually the natural end point for consultation. I usually run these 2 elements in tandem TBH, makes life easier.

You are correct to ask for details on criteria for selection - the company ought to be able to provide this and run a (smallish) risk here if they cannot or will not as you will be unable to determine the objectivity of selection and may feel aggrieved as a result.

Finally, I'm assuming you have had formal notification of being at risk + individual meetings with HR to kick off the consultation? They need to do this if they are going by the book.

pimento

What has happened so far is that we had one meeting with our boss who told us (altogether) that we were unsucessful.
We then called a meeting with HR (as a team) to ask for procedural clarification regarding an appeal of the recruitment process used as we felt we had been unfairly treated.
I've been with the company for 12 years and so I know that whetever we do, they will not change their minds, so decided that I had had enough stress and would not appeal. The two who are appealing are aiming for the whole thing to be thrown out and we start again. I don't think this will happen.

We asked HR for the criteria they will use and have been told they don't know yet. We asked who would make up the panel, bearing in mind that co-incidentally, our boss leaves next friday and his replacment (who is coming from another site and doesn't know any of us from Adam) arrives August 6th. and they couldn't tell us.

This set of circumstances has never happened here. the HR woman has been here 32 years and it has never happened that they have to choose someone on reverse merit to go.

We were offered voluntary redundancy, and we were each given a forecast of what we would expect should we be made redundant, but have had no other consultation apart from that.

I have told HR that I am on leave starting July 23.

Pete111

Oh dear. Unfortunate all round I think.

Your HR person is not really on top of this by the sounds of it, which makes it more confusing for you guys but also makes some sense if she has been fortunate enough to have never had to do a redundancy in 32 years (!)

Most companies do not allow an appeal re a recruitment decision but you can raise a greivance based on it - I guess this is what is effectively happening with your 2 colleagues. I agree though it is unlikely to change anything

The 4-3 redundancy should be quite simple but I suspect the recruitment 'appeal' is muddying the water. Ie if the recruitment decsion is overturned the redundancy is not needed.

From a company perspective therefore the order of events should ideally be:

1) Decision re recrruitment appeal/greivance made and 2 x staff notified
(Assuming nothing changes here)
2) Formal invites to all 4 staff to 1st redundancy consultation sent
3) 4 x individual consultation meetings held to discuss redundancy proposals + selection for remaining 3 roles + options re voluntary redundancy (if appropriate)
4) Selection process run using objective criteria (bone of contention here as we know - you should push this point as a group )
5) 4 x Final consultation meeting to confirm situation re selection and as a result, individual status re the redundancy
6) Redundancy appeal heard if affected individual choses to appeal.

Am I right in thinking it is rather more complex looking at present?

P

pimento

I think they are treating the appeal against the process of recruitment and the subsequesnt redundancy as two separate procedures.

There's a 10 day wait after them deciding who gets a job so that any other applicants involved can appeal. This is in case the new person's references are not good, or they change their mind, or similar.

Once the ten days are up, they can then proceed to do the redundancy, but half of the four at risk, will be on leave.

Individuals have been made redundant before, but not where there is more than one/or hasn't volunteered.

They've never had a reverse merit situation before.

Pete111

Ah Ok - if it's company policy re recruitment then fair enough. I agree they should be separate processes however and to ensure this it may have been easier to wait until that was sorted before formally kicking the redundacy off (though from your post I'm not 100% sure they have formally put you at risk as yet - have you had a letter?) but there you go.

'Reverse merit' is a silly term but the logic is sound - ie the worst one goes.

The problem is how do you objectively decide who the worst one is if you have no appraisals/sales stats etc and are not using sickness/punctuality or other widely accepted rationale? Given they clearly have no objective means to do this (or they would have told you) I understand your concerns re it being a popularity contest. TBH it would probably be 'fairer' to run you all through interviews but it doesn't sound like this is on the cards.

It's important to note that the company will have already decided who is getting the boot and HR /Mgt will (if they have any brains) now be forumlating a criteria/process that allows them to overtly justify the decision to that individual/group. This does not mean you are not correct to chase them for the criteria however, it will help keep them as honest as possible in the circumstances.

pimento

Hi Pete,
You've been very helpful, far more helpful than my "My door is always open" HR department.

I think you're probably right about them having already decided who is for the chop, I just pray it isn't me.

None of us have had letters formally advising that we are at risk. Even my rejection for the job was a two line email.

It's a rubbish way to treat staff really. The longest serving of the four of us has been here 20 years, the shortest five. They have no regard for corporate memory or staff morale. It's sad.

Pete111

My door is often closed - probably because I spend far too much time on MSE!

(though I could argue it's partially relevant to my work..:rolleyes:...maybe!)

Sounds like they are waiting to formally start the consultation until after the recruitment decision which makes sense (though they appear to have informally started it already ...) You should approach HR re this given your initial query re holiday. Worst case is that you at least understand what will be happening in your absence and arrange to participate via phone etc. Best case scenario is they delay consultation until you both return - which would at the very least mean another 3 weeks wiork for the unlucky one.

Keep us posted re the process etc - it sounds a bit hit and miss and sometimes companies make simple mistakes (that they should not do really) that can be picked up on if required

Good luck

P

Stressedcat01

Hi

I'm going through the 2nd redundancy with my company in 6 months. We were advised last Tuesday of the redundancy and are now in a 30 day consultation period.

My boss is off sick and apparently has been told of the decision. However, this is a case of the company closing, not individuals so the 5 of us remaining are all being made redundant.

I don't think that they will be able to make any decisions without talking to you if you're all on approved holiday. However, I would get in touch with CAB to find out your rights first.

The one thing I've learnt through all this is to try and keep on HR's "good side" and cooperate with them as much as possible. Really not a good idea to make enemies of them... No matter how you feel about it or them.

As far as I know, they will still have to go through a consultation period even if you are on holiday.

See what CAB say - they'll definitely be able to give proper advice.
Hope that helps (even a bit)
Stressedcat01