More questions about Mr Dog's estate etc.

John_Pierpoint

I realise that some of these questions have nothing to do with tax but I'll ask them here in the hope that together we can answer them.

Question 1.
I have got to the stage with Mr Dog's estate where the outstanding accounts are being liquidated and the cheques are rolling in.;)
I still have the house to sell and the Home Information Pack (HIP) is being prepared.
For the case of question 1 let us pretend:
Mr Dog's estate is worth 824K.
The nil rate band is 312K for widower and 312K for his wife who died a few years ago.
So 824 - 624 = 200K which means I have to pay 80K in Inheritance Tax.
Mr Dog has left a 1,000 pounds worth of car, so the car has played its part in creating the 80K tax liability. It is responsible for 1/824 th of the tax 1/824 x 80K =
97 pounds.
Am I right in thinking that if the will says "I leave my car to French Poodle" then French Poodle gets the car, end of story.
However if the will makes no mention of the car and one of the beneficiaries, let us call him "boy racer" says:
"Can I have the car as part of my settlement?"
Should I reply:
"No problem, but it will count as 1097 of the (let us say) 20K I owe you as your share of the residuary?"

Question 2.
This is nothing to do with Mr Dog but applies to me.
I own a piece of land as a trustee (don't get excited we are talking scruffy old rented out grazing field).
I am joint tenant with someone else, partly to make sure I don't sell it and pocked the cash; partly so that should I fall under a bus, there will not be a long delay while my estate is sorted out, and partly because 8 different people cannot legally own one field.
Anyway the someone else, let us call him "Nemo", has dropped dead. Nobody bothered to tell me and I found out by trying to phone him.
I eventually got to talk to one of nemo's sons; don't know if he is the executor or not; who rather treated me as a nuisance but agreed to send me a death certificate.
Eventually a scribbled note arrived attached to a photocopy.
So I wrote back saying that the bank account and especially the Land Registry would want the real thing (Not even sure that they would accept a photocopy endorsed by a solicitor, if he is employing one) and offering to pay the 3.50.
Result deadly silence.
Can I simply bypass this uncooperative fellow and extract my own "official" nemo death certificate? If so how do I go about it.

Q3
(It must be my more-funerals-than-weddings age).
My wife has received a cheque from a relative signed J. Bloggs POE as the name printed on the cheque is Fred Bloggs - so far so good as poor old F. Bloggs is in a care home and so needed someone with power of attorney to sign his cheques.
However Mrs P has hung onto this cheque for the best part of a month during which time F. Bloggs has died.
Now J.Bloggs has told her that presenting the cheque for payment will be no problem as it is signed POE and dated prior to the death.
I think it should "bounce" (and cost us 30 quid for the privilege) as I've been here before, holding a cheque from someone who died before I could present it.

Any thoughts?

relaxtwotribes

Just my view on Q3, which is that the cheque will bounce. Mrs P's position is that she has changed from being a creditor of J Bloggs to being a creditor of the estate of J Bloggs dec'd (the estate being represented by the executors, assuming J Bloggs made a will) and should claim against the estate (via the executors) for the amount owed.

SeniorSam

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

I realise that some of these questions have nothing to do with tax but I'll ask them here in the hope that together we can answer them.

Question 1.
I have got to the stage with Mr Dog's estate where the outstanding accounts are being liquidated and the cheques are rolling in.;)
I still have the house to sell and the Home Information Pack (HIP) is being prepared.
For the case of question 1 let us pretend:
Mr Dog's estate is worth 824K.
The nil rate band is 312K for widower and 312K for his wife who died a few years ago.
So 824 - 624 = 200K which means I have to pay 80K in Inheritance Tax.
Mr Dog has left a 1,000 pounds worth of car, so the car has played its part in creating the 80K tax liability. It is responsible for 1/824 th of the tax 1/824 x 80K =
97 pounds.
Am I right in thinking that if the will says "I leave my car to French Poodle" then French Poodle gets the car, end of story.
However if the will makes no mention of the car and one of the beneficiaries, let us call him "boy racer" says:
"Can I have the car as part of my settlement?"
Should I reply:
"No problem, but it will count as 1097 of the (let us say) 20K I owe you as your share of the residuary?"

Question 2.
This is nothing to do with Mr Dog but applies to me.
I own a piece of land as a trustee (don't get excited we are talking scruffy old rented out grazing field).
I am joint tenant with someone else, partly to make sure I don't sell it and pocked the cash; partly so that should I fall under a bus, there will not be a long delay while my estate is sorted out, and partly because 8 different people cannot legally own one field.
Anyway the someone else, let us call him "Nemo", has dropped dead. Nobody bothered to tell me and I found out by trying to phone him.
I eventually got to talk to one of nemo's sons; don't know if he is the executor or not; who rather treated me as a nuisance but agreed to send me a death certificate.
Eventually a scribbled note arrived attached to a photocopy.
So I wrote back saying that the bank account and especially the Land Registry would want the real thing (Not even sure that they would accept a photocopy endorsed by a solicitor, if he is employing one) and offering to pay the 3.50.
Result deadly silence.
Can I simply bypass this uncooperative fellow and extract my own "official" nemo death certificate? If so how do I go about it.

Q3
(It must be my more-funerals-than-weddings age).
My wife has received a cheque from a relative signed J. Bloggs POE as the name printed on the cheque is Fred Bloggs - so far so good as poor old F. Bloggs is in a care home and so needed someone with power of attorney to sign his cheques.
However Mrs P has hung onto this cheque for the best part of a month during which time F. Bloggs has died.
Now J.Bloggs has told her that presenting the cheque for payment will be no problem as it is signed POE and dated prior to the death.
I think it should "bounce" (and cost us 30 quid for the privilege) as I've been here before, holding a cheque from someone who died before I could present it.

Any thoughts?

Hi John,

Q1 - The car can pass to boy racer as part of his settlement at its correct value that was submitted to the revenue on the Probate form.

Q2 - As joint tennant the scruffy land is now yours and passed to you when the other tennant died. The land Registry may need to see a certified death certificate to change to your name only and it is the executors responsibility to supply this. If a problem then contact the Registry Office who may be able to supply a copy

Q3 - There should be no problem with the cheque as it was signed before death by the person with POA, which will be on record with the bank. Submit it.

Hope this helps

Sam

John_Pierpoint

Hi Sam,
The reason I raised the question of the car is this hypothetical situation:

Let us suppose an estate consists of simple savings and a posh house owned by a single person:

The savings are worth 500,000 cash and the posh house is put through probate at 500,000. The IHT nil rate band is 325K; so taxable estate is 1,000,000 - 325,000 = 675,000 and tax paid is 270,000.

There are two beneficiaries..

Presumably if the will says "My Niece gets the house" and "My nephew gets the rest of my estate", the nephew gets what is left of the money.

However if the will says "My niece and nephew share my estate equally" then, if the niece wants the house, she should pay 135K into the kitty to go to her cousin; that being the tax created by the value of the house?

In real life there are several beneficiaries of Mr Dog's will (including Darling the chancellor) so I want to do it correctly and don't want any winging about "yes but there is 50 quid of tax embedded in those pictures etc", nor do I want the hassle of selling the house contents; if I can avoid it, because someone actually wants the telly/washing machine/furniture etc. etc. .

SeniorSam

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

Hi Sam,
The reason I raised the question of the car is this hypothetical situation:

Let us suppose an estate consists of simple savings and a posh house owned by a single person:

The savings are worth 500,000 cash and the posh house is put through probate at 500,000. The IHT nil rate band is 325K; so taxable estate is 1,000,000 - 325,000 = 675,000 and tax paid is 270,000.

There are two beneficiaries..

Presumably if the will says "My Niece gets the house" and "My nephew gets the rest of my estate", the nephew gets what is left of the money.

However if the will says "My niece and nephew share my estate equally" then, if the niece wants the house, she should pay 135K into the kitty to go to her cousin; that being the tax created by the value of the house?

In real life there are several beneficiaries of Mr Dog's will (including Darling the chancellor) so I want to do it correctly and don't want any winging about "yes but there is 50 quid of tax embedded in those pictures etc", nor do I want the hassle of selling the house contents; if I can avoid it, because someone actually wants the telly/washing machine/furniture etc. etc. .

Hi again John,

The Will would normally say the distribution of the estate is 'after all expenses and taxes' and I would guess that is no difference with the dogs will.

If the beneficiaries are to share equally, this will be after tax is paid - no way around that. However, if specific sums of money (bequests) are specified in the Will, then they would need to be honoured from the net estate as that is the way the dog wanted his bones to be shared around.

Therefore, after such gifts, the net estate of house and savings would normally be proportioned accordingly.

It comes down to what the person who wrote the Will actually wanted and if disputed, then the courts woud make a ruling, but normally the executors decission is accepted.

Hope this is clear.

Sam

dzug1

SeniorSam wrote: »

The land Registry may need to see a certified death certificate to change to your name only and it is the executors responsibility to supply this. If a problem then contact the Registry Office who may be able to supply a copy

The Registry Office will let you (or anyone alse) have (for a fee) an official copy of anyone's death certificate - probably the simplest way out.

In fact if it's a joint tenancy the land doesn't pass through nemo's executor's hands at all, but straight to you, so it's arguable whether they should supply you with a proper death certificate or not. Even if they should, it sounds much easier to by-pass them.

John_Pierpoint

SeniorSam wrote: »

Hi again John,

The Will would normally say the distribution of the estate is 'after all expenses and taxes' and I would guess that is no difference with the dogs will.

If the beneficiaries are to share equally, this will be after tax is paid - no way around that. However, if specific sums of money (bequests) are specified in the Will, then they would need to be honoured from the net estate as that is the way the dog wanted his bones to be shared around.

Therefore, after such gifts, the net estate of house and savings would normally be proportioned accordingly.

It comes down to what the person who wrote the Will actually wanted and if disputed, then the courts would make a ruling, but normally the executors decision is accepted.

Hope this is clear.

Sam

Hi Sam,
Mr Dog's will has been causing me potential problems from the day it was written.
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1164505
The partially intestate will has already resulted in the some beneficiaries realising that they have "lost out" relative to what Mr Dog probably (?) had in mind when he had the will written.
(Insufficient fact find on the part of the will writer ?)

In the will the bequests of money are specified as tax free.
The bequests of goods (eg the car) are not specified as tax free (but my belief is that the default for a specific bequest is tax free - I don't actually know)

Fortunately the house is not mentioned, so it falls into the residuary and we have all agreed to sell it.

However for those "heirlooms" (junk?) that individual beneficiaries fancy, the idea of apportioning fiddly little bits of tax to arbitrary probate valuations becomes something of a nightmare.

I think I will tell the beneficiaries, if they ask, that I have not done that and they can like it or lump it.

dzug1 wrote: »

The Registry Office will let you (or anyone else) have (for a fee) an official copy of anyone's death certificate - probably the simplest way out.

In fact if it's a joint tenancy the land doesn't pass through nemo's executor's hands at all, but straight to you, so it's arguable whether they should supply you with a proper death certificate or not. Even if they should, it sounds much easier to by-pass them.

I think I agree with you - Do you know how I get my hands on one - going to the place where his death was registered is not really feasible. Is there some central registry, like there is for probate/letters of administration?

Cheers,

John

John_Pierpoint

Just for the record, I sent a cheque to the office where the death of my co-land owner had been registered and got a nice official copy.

Less than a tenner - but without the scruffy photocopy I would not know where the death had been registered.