Council tax double bill

davelaw00

Hi All,

This is my first post, and I was wondering if there is anyone out there that would be so kind as to offer me a bit of advice. This seemed like the most appropriate board. Sorry if it isn't.

I pay council tax under the City of Edinburgh Council. I moved into my new flat in 02 Feb 09. Upon moving in, I was sent a council tax bill by my landlord which asked for c tax payment up until the 31/03/09. The bill was under my landlord's name and account number, however I called up and paid the bill.

A month later, the council sent me a letter asking who was living there. I filled it out including the date I moved in, saying i wanted to pay monthly and sent it back. I was sent a demand notice under a new account number and my name for the period 01/04/09-31/03/10 with a payment schedule on. All fine and dandy.

I have been paying on time and I assumed all was fine.

Yesterday I was sent a reminder notice (containing lots of red ink) telling me that I owed the council a substantial amount of money (around £300). The letter used a different account number to the two mentioned above but used my name and the flat address. The letter told me that I have been sent a previous reminder and had 14 days to pay before it went to the sheriff court.

I have never been sent any letters about this money before.

I called up the council and it seems that they're asking for the money that I paid under my landlords name after the first 2 months of me moving in.

I need to write a letter and provide proof of payment etc.

My questions are:

Is there any way I can ask them for proof that they sent the first reminder that i've never received. As I have never received it, surely I deserve longer than 14 days? The reminder has the date of the 24/06 so time is running short for me to get this sorted out.

They are effectively trying to get money out of me twice. This is an error on their part, is there any sort of compensation that can be claimed against them for over charging, wrong bills etc?

It's all a big hassle that involved in getting this sorted out as I'm going to have to take time off work to go to the council offices as they've got stupid opening hours.

You thoughts would be really appreciated.

Thank you!

CIS

You paid a bill in someone else's name which is a big mistake anyway as you needed the council tax bill in your name. Have you being making payments using the reference number shown on the bill the L/L gave you ?, if so you'll have made payments on to an accont in his name and not yours.

Its a common problem we see in the dept I work in - effectively the payments are made to an account in someone else name and then its a hassle trying to sort who made what payments.

The reminders would be posted in bulk - under council tax legislation proof of postage is proof of delivery - the local authority should be able to provide a copy of the relevant batch postage certificate.

John_Pierpoint

This still does not explain how the local authority can charge for tax TWICE for the same property for the same period? Even the most primitive computer system should flag that up as an error.

Did the original poster pay the first payment directly to the local authority or to the landlord?
Has the OP proved the date they took up residence.?
Who paid for the void period, when the flat was empty, before the OP moved in?
Is there some sort of anomaly about the tax payable - such as single occupancy discount ?

This sounds like typical persecution by a computer system operated by a semi trained lazy muppet. They might even be "trying it on", as a landlord I've had tenants trying to pretend they pay via the landlord. The local authority don't care who pays as long as they get their tax.

However, even if the OP can prove that the correct tax has been received at the correct time, a confrontational attitude might result in the satisfaction of being right but will involve a lot of stress. My attitude would be to do everything to help the said muppet find and reconcile the lost payment and confirm exactly what has been agree in writing.
If you cannot get the muppet to agree that legal proceedings have been suspended, write by recorded delivery by name to the Chief Executive (or deliver the letter yourself and demand a signature). Your initial attitude should be polite and helpful BUT remember
"they work for you" - you pay their wages.

If push really does come to shove - you will have to go to court and get the proceedings suspended. I'm sure that there is a Scottish ombudsman who works in a similar fashion to the English one, but you first have to complain to your local councillor.

Even if the tax payer "wins" it will be at a cost in time and stress out of all proportion to any compensation awarded. So nip it in the bud. "Step one - where have YOU put my missing money?".

John.

BTW When it happened to me, I got one of those letters apparently mailed a week after it was written, but when I went along to the court, the court officials said "our records show that the 14 day notice was served on you today"; just another example of the mendacity the authorities use to try to intimidate the punter. In my case I entered a written defence, the authority backed off, but I never got an apology for their incompetence. Heaven knows how many other people had had their payments mis-posted in the accounts.

CIS

This still does not explain how the local authority can charge for tax TWICE for the same property for the same period? .

It would explain it easily e.g

L/L receives £1000 bill for period of 01 Apr - 31 mar and hands it to tenant - tenant pays £1000 on the L/L's account.

Council later find tenant occupies the property from 01 Apr - 31 Mar so closes the account that was in the L/L name. L/L is then £1000 in credit, tenant receives another £1000 bill but this time its in their name rather than the L/L.

As far as the council are aware the L/L has overpaid by £1000 and the tenant has paid nothing.

Even the most primitive computer system should flag that up as an error

IIRC Edinburgh use the Sx3 System - I use this system every day and it definitely wont allow duplicate accounts for the same period.

This sounds like typical persecution by a computer system operated by a semi trained lazy muppet. They might even be "trying it on", as a landlord I've had tenants trying to pretend they pay via the landlord. The local authority don't care who pays as long as they get their tax.

Its far more likely that the issue was caused by the OP not initially paying on an account in their name however they need to speak to the council to resolve the issue. (or at least check the periods shown on the bills they have received - its likely that both the OP's and the L/L's bills cover a large part of the same time period).

John_Pierpoint

So why cannot the muppet, who should be the "expert" in this relationship, explain that to the tenant?
Why does the tenant have TWO account numbers for the same address?
Presumably up in Scotland landlords also have the right to collect Council Tax on behalf of their tenants, and receive a kick back from the council?

If there are two people involved in a relation ship the possibilities for saying yes or no are:
YY
NN
YN
NY
ie only two ways to have a disagreement or misunderstanding.
Now add a third party to the relationship and see how many possibilities there are.
Ah it is time to blame the victim.
Let us see just how much PUBLIC money we can waste getting this non dispute onto the steps of the court house?
Perhaps the original poster would care to let us know, how much of their life they have wasted working as an unpaid tax collector?

MamTor13

Your landlord will likely be sent the money you paid as a refund for overpayment on the account you paid, so you'll need to speak to him/her about getting this back. Use that money to pay your account. If you explain all these problems to the LA they should delay the date they gave you.

davelaw00

Wow! Quite a response guys, thanks. I really appreciate it.

Have you being making payments using the reference number shown on the bill the L/L gave you ?, if so you'll have made payments on to an accont in his name and not yours.

No, I am currently making council tax payments using a new account number that was assigned to me when I told the council I was living there. Only the first bill that was sent by the L/L under his name, was paid under that account number.

This reminder letter is under a THIRD account number - that's what I don't understand.

Did the original poster pay the first payment directly to the local authority or to the landlord?

I paid it directly to the local authority.

Has the OP proved the date they took up residence.?

In so much as telling the council the date I moved in when they sent me a new resident form.

Who paid for the void period, when the flat was empty, before the OP moved in?

The L/L. The first bill I received from the L/L was for a three month period. I was only occupier for 2 of those months, so he sent me a cheque for the value of 1 months council tax.

Is there some sort of anomaly about the tax payable - such as single occupancy discount ?

The bill the L/L sent did have a 10% second home discount on it. However the total was for £390 (for three months), so the reminder notice I've received now doesn't equate to 10% of the first two months I lived there.

The local authority don't care who pays as long as they get their tax.

That's what i'm suprised about. The computer must show that the property has received this payment. There's only one property but three acc numbers.

As far as the council are aware the L/L has overpaid by £1000 and the tenant has paid nothing.

That seems like a logical explanation. However, I haven't been able to get in contact with the L/L since I received this reminder notice.

The situation now is that I've sent a letter by special guaranteed by 1pm delivery to the director of finance. The letter outlines the situation and I have included a copy of my bank statement to prove the original payment. I have also included copies of all the bills I've received.

I went to the council office in my lunch break today but there was a wait of over 1hr! It's crazy. Their offices are open from 8:30-4:30, how the hell is someone that has a full time job supposed to contact them when they've got no way of taking time off work to wait on hold for 30 minutes to speak to an advisor.

I'm going to call again tomorrow, tell them I've sent the docs and try to speak to someone higher up. The girl I spoke to yesterday had someone whispering instructions down her ear.

John_Pierpoint

It gets worse.
You must be ready to protect your corner at the local court.
I don't know what it is like in Scotland, but if you go along with all your paper work in order:
Ie There is my council tax payment for February £xxx, March £xxx, April £xxx, May £xxx June £xxx.
And the lawyer sent by the local authority flaffs about with multiple account numbers and at the same time tries to charge you for his time, I cannot see any reasonable "beak" finding against you. Especially as you have done everything reasonable to "discover" and correct the situation.
Remember telephone calls do not exist in court, visits probably do not, all you can produce is reasonable letters promptly trying to mitigate the muddle created by the local authority.
Those in power want to spend their time playing "reconciliation clerk" even less than the rest of us do.
Have one last attempt to reach intelligent life at the local authority:
I would lay out a simple schedule of payments - don't get side tracked into this stuff about account numbers and second home discounts; that is all council stuff that does not concern you, a simple citizen..
Take the line of "I have paid you the following sums that you have received: dates and figures." - Please let me know what you have done with my money and explain to me why you consider that I am in arrears with my payments. When you have explained my alleged outstanding debt, I will make arrangements to settle this matter promptly.

I still get the impression that "they" are trying to get "you" to sort out "their" mess; but you do have to be absolutely clear about your position.

John.

BTW The answer to the muddle/disagreement generator works like this:

YY - Y
YY - N

YN - N
YN - Y

NY - N
NY - Y

NN - Y
NN - N

So bringing the landlord into the picture has increased the complexity from a fifty fifty chance of a disagreement to 6 disagreements for 2 agreements.
Now add a third "account" and work out the complexity of possibilities. (double it and add two ie 14 possibilities of a disagreement).
Ordinary individuals cannot understand that level of complexity, even after using pen and paper.
I do wish those who try to govern us would remember that BEFORE they dream up ever increasing tax complexity.
As a society, we don't need armies of people, wasting their lives, administering this level of complexity.

davelaw00

So we went to see the council today. Proved we had paid the money and all is sorted. They had refunded the amount to the landlord and are going to go after him to get the money.

Thank you for all your advice and guidance. This forum is awesome!

CIS

So we went to see the council today. Proved we had paid the money and all is sorted. They had refunded the amount to the landlord and are going to go after him to get the money.

pretty much what I thought - its surprising how many times things like this happen but at least you got it sorted.

hodgester

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

This sounds like typical persecution by a computer system operated by a semi trained lazy muppet. They might even be "trying it on", as a landlord I've had tenants trying to pretend they pay via the landlord. The local authority don't care who pays as long as they get their tax.

However, even if the OP can prove that the correct tax has been received at the correct time, a confrontational attitude might result in the satisfaction of being right but will involve a lot of stress. My attitude would be to do everything to help the said muppet find and reconcile the lost payment and confirm exactly what has been agree in writing.
If you cannot get the muppet to agree that legal proceedings have been suspended, write by recorded delivery by name to the Chief Executive (or deliver the letter yourself and demand a signature). Your initial attitude should be polite and helpful BUT remember "they work for you" - you pay their wages.
.

Anger management issues? Still my answer would be yeah, what CIS said. Most tenancy agreements state that it is the tenant(s)'s responsibility to register for utilities and property taxes. Paying a bill which is someone elses name is a risk I wouldn't enter into without taking advice from the 'muppets' first.


The landlord should have known better than to send you the bill, but dealt with the issue of liability himself. Unfortunately some landlords are aggressive, ignorant muppets :rotfl: