Mary Portas take on dying High St's

Mr_Mumble

dopester wrote: »

An independent would be crazy to try and compete at the lower-end. A shop selling low-grade food at low prices, at low margins --- also competing against your Aldi, Lidl, Nettos, Co-ops... and now according to you... Wilkinsons, Home Bargain and Poundland.

About a decade ago someone clued-me-up to cheap food production - really really put me off.

I don't disagree! My point was that there was no oligopoly in food retailing (ergo mentioning Wilkinson's, HB and pound stores - they're not grocers but you could live off the sandwiches, rice, packet pasta, soup, crisps, choc and pop they sell!) I'd also argue that Lidl and Aldi sell better meat products for about the same price as M&S or Waitrose - cheaper doesn't necessarily mean lower quality.

lemonjelly wrote: »

They built a horrible, sprawling mall. Massively high rents, staffed with part timers on minimum wage.

Lemonjelly, I've never before had such a diametrically opposed view on MSE than I have with you on Merry Hill - I like it! The staff are paid the same as any other staff in major retail outlets such as M&S, Sainsbury's, WH Smith et al.

Brierley hill used to be a thriving, but small local town. It died completely. Their high street is now fast food takeaways, & charity shops. The impact on the community is massive.

Brierley Hill high street is a 10 minute walk from from Merry Hill and is a complete tip - if it was such a nice area and Merry Hill so ugly why did major retailers relocate to the malls? The impact on the community is massive - thanks to the vastly improved public transport the area attracts far more consumers from further afield, there has been a canal side redevelopment that has brought the service sector to the town and made the area more attractive to younger professional folk who can rent from the recently built flats and who can be entertained by the large multiplex cinema that was one of the first buildings on the Merry Hill site.

Knock on effects were wider - not all local people got jobs there. It has been classed as one of the most deprived areas of the UK for several years. Education etc has falen off a cliff. No investment. The locals didnt have the incomes anymore, therefore couldn't afford to go shopping (either in the mh centre, or their local shops). Net results, local businesses started failing, as their customers fell. Passing trade fell, as everyone was now heading to this new shopping mecca.

Education is a matter of the local council and central government - a shopping centre can not be blamed for that. The black country was hit hard by loss of manufacturing industry but this is something locals should bounce back from, we shouldn't lament the loss of metal bashing any more than that of subsistence farming. The oldest part of Merry Hill has a few independent shops and any local business could have relocated there. I don't think having a large Asda within a couple of minutes walk of a Sainsbury's and M&S makes it unaffordable to go shopping.

Worse, surrounding towns are dying too. And still no-one has addressed some of the issues (such as the massive increases in traffic) owing to the fact that the site was sold & built without any planning restrictions.

Malls like this are a blight on society in so many ways...

Completely disagree, malls are shopping meccas that consumers want and enjoy. If stuffy independent retailers turn their nose up at change and don't adapt they deserve to die.

lemonjelly

Mr_Mumble wrote: »

Lemonjelly, I've never before had such a diametrically opposed view on MSE than I have with you on Merry Hill - I like it! The staff are paid the same as any other staff in major retail outlets such as M&S, Sainsbury's, WH Smith et al.


Brierley Hill high street is a 10 minute walk from from Merry Hill and is a complete tip - if it was such a nice area and Merry Hill so ugly why did major retailers relocate to the malls? The impact on the community is massive - thanks to the vastly improved public transport the area attracts far more consumers from further afield, there has been a canal side redevelopment that has brought the service sector to the town and made the area more attractive to younger professional folk who can rent from the recently built flats and who can be entertained by the large multiplex cinema that was one of the first buildings on the Merry Hill site.


Education is a matter of the local council and central government - a shopping centre can not be blamed for that. The black country was hit hard by loss of manufacturing industry but this is something locals should bounce back from, we shouldn't lament the loss of metal bashing any more than that of subsistence farming. The oldest part of Merry Hill has a few independent shops and any local business could have relocated there. I don't think having a large Asda within a couple of minutes walk of a Sainsbury's and M&S makes it unaffordable to go shopping.


Completely disagree, malls are shopping meccas that consumers want and enjoy. If stuffy independent retailers turn their nose up at change and don't adapt they deserve to die.

Wow! Suppose we'll have to agree to disagree!?;)

Personally, I find merry hill a soulless characterless place.

Having had some involvement in the background of how it came to be built, I am aware that the rents there are charged at such rates that the local/independent retailers are not in a position to be able to afford it. Indeed, even the major chains have closed a number of outlets there owing to the costs.

Yes, Brierley High street isn't the best place - now. However, after being abandoned (or not even considered) by most retailers for several years, with rents being consistently reduced, and no investment in it, with a huge mall being built next to it, investment in the area has been zero. Repairs have been zero. The place has been allowed to crumble. The only stores willing to take on the options on the high street have been high turnover places. It becomes a viscious circle.

Vastly improved public transport? I have to disagree there. Roads consistently congested. Traffic delays. Local roads badly damaged by large lorries. In 1998 I was advised my (then) place of work was about to be demolished for the impending metro system. 11 Years later, we are still waiting.... Transport has not improved, & local infrastructures were not considered when the MH centre was developed.

The multiplex cinema is in dire need of regenerating now...

The canalside development is, IMO, a short term thing. It is all service sector, and with the current downturn will suffer IMO. In addition, it is concerning the level of business'/agencies who are moving out of the wharf properties which are there.

Problem is, a lot of locals lost their identity, and ambition when the large local employer went.

Regarding this: Completely disagree, malls are shopping meccas that consumers want and enjoy , I have to completely disagree . People go there, because it is there. Not because it is what we demanded.

Such cathedrals of shopping are becoming faceless, soulless and McMalls - all of them are looking the same, have the same shops, the same layout. No identity or personality. Wholly artificial places. We go there precisely because we have no other choice!

twentypenceoff

this is a very interesting thread as someonetoday was complaining that all you ever get in (small) town centres now are the low cost shops, and charity shops, and he couldnt understand why there were no more expensive shops opening up.

i thought it was because these were the only types of shops local wages can support so eventually the more expensive shops go only to the larger towns where there are higher wage earners, higher wage earners with cars travel to the larger towns to shop there instead leaving even poorer peope to shop in the small towns and a decline sets in from there.

bo_drinker

Pobby wrote: »

Kitchen being refurbed at the moment. We went to our local

Double sausage, double egg, beans and chips

Scampi and chips

glass of wine

pint of premium lager

change from nine quid!!!!!!!!

O H not hungry?? :rotfl:

Mr_Mumble

lemonjelly wrote: »

Yes, Brierley High street isn't the best place - now. However, after being abandoned (or not even considered) by most retailers for several years, with rents being consistently reduced, and no investment in it, with a huge mall being built next to it, investment in the area has been zero. Repairs have been zero. The place has been allowed to crumble. The only stores willing to take on the options on the high street have been high turnover places. It becomes a viscious circle.

I shouldn't have called it a tip but its locale isn't ideal with a main road running through. Stourbridge is a far better centre (and yes it is having its own problems thanks to Merry Hill!)

Vastly improved public transport? I have to disagree there. Roads consistently congested. Traffic delays. Local roads badly damaged by large lorries. In 1998 I was advised my (then) place of work was about to be demolished for the impending metro system. 11 Years later, we are still waiting.... Transport has not improved, & local infrastructures were not considered when the MH centre was developed.

For someone who lives some miles away the bus service to Brierley/Merry Hill is a far sight better than any other small town in the area. It is hard to think where such a shopping centre could be put "out of town", so not have such bad traffic problems, in this area. I agree with the general state of the transport infrastructure, heck, I remember the daft monorail that was supposed to be the future (for anyone still reading outside the locale imagine The Simpsons episode!)

The multiplex cinema is in dire need of regenerating now...

It is but the area wouldn't have one if it wasn't for Merry Hill!

The canalside development is, IMO, a short term thing. It is all service sector, and with the current downturn will suffer IMO. In addition, it is concerning the level of business'/agencies who are moving out of the wharf properties which are there.

Problem is, a lot of locals lost their identity, and ambition when the large local employer went.

This is now a problem faced by Longbridge - it isn't a pretty sight (or site, they're still flattening it). Whether we little people like it or not much of the industrial, manufacturing and construction base has been shipped off to China or South Korea. The theory is that those folk are paid less so we can get the goods cheaper ourselves - they benefit from increased wages over time and technology transfer. Most of the western world is now service sector orientated, if it is short-term thinking we're stuffed.:eek:

Regarding this: Completely disagree, malls are shopping meccas that consumers want and enjoy , I have to completely disagree . People go there, because it is there. Not because it is what we demanded.

So why doesn't everyone flood into Stourbridge, Dudley or Wolverhampton, why are there regular bus services from other strong retail centres such as Birmingham or Worcester? "We demanded", perhaps the locals in the very near vicinity but before the new Bull Ring... Merry Hill was the no.1 shopping destination in the West Midland afaik!

Such cathedrals of shopping are becoming faceless, soulless and McMalls - all of them are looking the same, have the same shops, the same layout. No identity or personality. Wholly artificial places. We go there precisely because we have no other choice!

The fascia of Merry Hill is a little ugly because it was one of the first of these kinds of super malls but its nice enough underneath the rooves on a rainy day. Newer malls looks quite nice to me architecturally and I don't think they deserve the "Mc", they don't all look the same! Oh, I wished Britain had McMansions... three times the size of your average British homestead for half the price (call me a culture heretic, go on ).

fc123

Wow, this has been busy busy.......I just wrote a long response..and it got zapped away. Someone is telling me something I think.;)


I want to respond to so may comments but 1st, I have to state that I have never sold a £300 dress in my life. We have always been at the beginning of things, so our price points have always been fairly accessable to many.


I'm currently involved in some Corp stuff (yup, I sold out but purely for reasons of research and short term survival) both online and in Real Life Land retail. Neirther will last that long (you get chewed up and spat out quite quickly) but they are essential to our survival throughout the next 2 years. A kind of mutual need STS.

It is a shame I have to post ambiguously about my 'job' but needs as must and all that. In fact, I have some some super Corp gossip that I am saving up for future times....or perhaps a book on 'The Effects of Price Deflation within The Garment Industry on Textile Waste Processors'' or some such title...feeling I could knock a K Andre Biography off the top seller list here...not.

I oversee producuction in the UK. It can be painful.


We closed our store for a variety of reasons. I had been proud of the fact we were 'last man standing'....but to be surrounded by chains in the end, was soul destroying. Especially as it was an Indie dominated area when we opened up 11 years back.

When a Subway opened last November, It was like a sign...like a light in the clouds.;)

My neighbour (a household name) had ex factory costs on garments of a tenth to a twelth of the retail price.
Floor staff were min wage. 4 hr contract. They used our bin as HO didn't pay for enough collections. They contributed precisely zero to Xmas lights/community events etc.

For every 100k they turned over, it cost about 10k in stock cost (allowing for wrirte offs/markdowns, leaving 90k towards rent/rates etc.

For every 100k we turned over, stock costs were approx 40k so leaving a lot less towards rents etc.

That is the key difference...not T/O.

We could also T/O more than them some days.

I found out after we left they had had a rent reduction of 30% (we paid the same pre review per sq ft) so also had a rates reduction of 25%.

Didn't stop them going into administration this year and getting rid of the outstanding rent review at the same time. It was just bad luck on our part as LL figured we could subsidise the chain neighbours. Would have ended up us forking out nearly double rent per sq ft.

All the rent reductions locally had been cloaked so couldn't be used in our evidence.

I am off to quote bits now.....but desperate to catch up on Ugly Betty too,.

fc123

Mr_Mumble wrote: »

fc123, enjoyed your detailed post (I then watched the programme with increasing frustration!) but I can't agree with this. Even in food there is no effective oligopoly with new entrants such as Aldi, Lidl and Netto along with enterprises that have been expanding at a good pace such as Waitrose, Co-op and even M&S. A reasonable range of food is also cropping up in more general bargain stores - the likes of Wilkinson's, Home Bargain and Poundland.

I may use Oligopoly a bit loosely as all of the above feel very oligopolistic to me.....so I meant 'Big Guys', Big Chains'.

My fave word is Tescopoly at the mo.

fc123

wageslave wrote: »

Dont you think the internet is the logical selling place for niche markets?

Definately....I read The Long Tail some time back...before the changes in my working life happened and it made so much sense.

However, a bit of Real life interraction is beyond price..it's different to answering an e-mail enquiry ay midnight.

The biggest problem is the cost of Real Life Selling nowadays due to the chains working on massive margins...they could pay ever higher rents which put the rents up to levels too high for indies to trade profitably in.

fc123

misskool wrote: »

I prefer self scan tills, I can scan and pack my items and pay by credit card without waiting for a slow checkout person or someone who takes an age to pay. I don't have much me time and when I have to do necessary things, like shopping for food etc, I would much rather have them over and done with as quickly as possible.

In shops I hate to shop in (but have no choice) like Boots and Asda, I always self scan. I hate the forced chat from the till staff. Lidl, however, is like a local store, friendly staff (on the whole) not serving from a script..a bit of realness about them.

fc123

Harry_Powell wrote: »

I've just ploughed through the whole thread and thought it was really interesting. Which retirement option did he chose in the end?

No idea but it would have been a pretty grim retirement.

Rule of thumb, shop Turnover should be 10 times rent. It's an old sum that has gone a bit awry over the past 4 years.

His shop was a cheapy premises, I guessed rental of £5k pa (based on sale price of 90k?) so expected T/O of £50k pa.

Shoes (esp Startrite etc) have no leeway on the mark up so I would expect one to make 15% profit max on gross T/O.

Shop would earn £15k pa before tax if it met it's sales targets which would be unlikely)...not a massive amount for the hassle and risk.