PayPal Chargeback - do we have to pay for unauthorised transaction?

cox78

Hi All,

We recently (March 15) sold an xbox 360 through ebay for £150. The guy who bought it paid through paypal, then collected the xbox from us.

Last month my wifes paypal account (which the money was paid into) was put on hold, and was put £150 in the negative. This was due to a chargeback request. The cardholder had claimed the payment was unauthorised, so was probably according to paypal a stolen or cloned card. This has also happened to someone else with the same buyer as we got an email through ebay about it. I phoned paypal and complained that this wasn't our responsibility, and they assured me that they were investigating and it should all be sorted out.

Yesterday however paypal closed the claim, and settled against us, saying we now owe them £157. They reckon that because the buyer collected from our door and therefore we don't have proof of posting, we have to pay this.

My argument is that they take the card details, they process the payment, they authorise the payment, they transfer the money. We have no input into this process. It is therefore either theirs, or the credit card companies, responsibility to pay this money back to the cardholder. We are without the xbox, why should we now pay £157?

They recommended that I contact the local police as its a criminal matter if this guy is using a card fraudulently (again, surely not our responsbility to report this). I did phone them however, and they confirmed my belief, that it is paypals responsibility to refund the money, they can't claim the money off me as the seller. However, having told paypal this, they still claim that their terms & conditions state that if we don't provide proof of posting then we have to pay. This isn't an issue of him not receiving the goods, its an issue of the card being used fraudulantly. I've completed my end of the deal. And besides, I believe the guy who collected it left a review saying "as advertised", and therefore thats proof of collection. But apparently paypal don't accept ebay as evidence.

Am I right in thinking this isn't my responsibility and that I shouldn't have to pay this?

LittleMissInDebt

You shouldn't have to, but Paypal are not known for actually listening to people. I wonder if you could use Moneyclaim or something to claim directly from the person you sold to, I expect someone else will know more than I do on that.

Whatever happens I hope this person doesn't get away with it and you get all your money back!

Browntoa

yes, you fell for the latest scam the protecton only applies if thitem is sent by trackable means, collection dodges this

cox78

Browntoa wrote: »

yes, you fell for the latest scam the protecton only applies if thitem is sent by trackable means, collection dodges this

I'm wondering if thats actually illegal though - anyone could just make up their own laws and label them as their "terms and conditions". If I put a notice on my door saying "trespassers will be shot and killed", I'm not sure I'd get away with it

ANNHILL123

we had the same problem with paypal and fought to get our money back and failed! we sold some tickets and posted them (recorded,signed for ) all ok however some weeks later after the gig and after we had thrown out the proof of posting the chargeback happened ! I wouldnt mind but I just wanted the face value of the tickets,wasnt out to make any money . some folks are scum. Good luck ...

basilseal

I'm afraid without proof of delivery, pay pal were bound to found against you, it was a done deal from the start.

The only thing i can advise you to do is see if the details on the ebay account were genuine or whether the purchase was made with a hijacked account.

If the scammer has used his own account with the correct details then you could pop round and ask for your x box back, or failing that issue a small claims court summons for the money they owe you.

cox78

basilseal wrote: »

I'm afraid without proof of delivery, pay pal were bound to found against you, it was a done deal from the start.

The only thing i can advise you to do is see if the details on the ebay account were genuine or whether the purchase was made with a hijacked account.

If the scammer has used his own account with the correct details then you could pop round and ask for your x box back, or failing that issue a small claims court summons for the money they owe you.

I believe it was a hijacked account, they did the same to someone else in the area with an xbox 360. But again, its not my responsibility to secure ebay/paypal accounts. If it was a claim that they didn't receive the item then I could understand them wanting proof of delivery, but it isn't, its a claim that it was a fraudulent purchase, i.e. nothing I could do about it.

cox78

Ok, another question. Can PayPal take the money off the card registered on our account without our permission? Or do we have to deposit the money to our paypal account? The reason I ask is that they will not allow me to remove the card details from the account whilst there is a negative balance, and I don't want them just taking the money (I've told my wife to cancel her card tomorrow and order a new one, that way they can't anyway).

catmiaow

Yes they can just take money from the account, problem with you cancelling the card is that soon you will get a letter from their debt collection department demanding the cash. So cancelling it will not be the end.

basilseal

the problem is, with a hijacked account, someone else has had their money stolen, and pay pal have given it back to them, unfortunately at your expense. When something is stolen, someone has to lose out. The question is, should it be you or pay pal?

I do wonder about the legality of pay pal's terms and conditions, there's an interesting post regarding pay pal refunds here

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.html?p=21993245&postcount=9

Some would say that as pay pal charge enough for the dubious privilege of using their money transfer service, and as ebay insist that we accept it for transactions that leave us wide open to fraud, they should stand the loss.

soolin

Interestingly there is a similar question in the Financial mail bit of the Mail on Sunday today, the Tony Hetherington pages.

Seller sold a TV, buyer collected and actual owner of the account realised they had an unauthorised transaction and reclaimed the money.

Paypal pointed out that their terms state that paypal is not suitable for collected items but after Mr Hetherington got involved they made a repayment as a goodwill gesture. Maybe worth a letter?

For other new sellers who may be reading this though this is a very common scam and one you do need to be aware of. You might find a quick read of the tips for new sellers thread useful:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1623183&highlight=tips+new+sellers