Help on "Court of Protection"

4paws

Good morning everyone.

Reading a number of threads here, there have been some advice regarding "Court of Protection".

Both my parents have been diagnosed with dementia, sadly this coming week they will leave their home of some 45 plus years (under the Mental Health Act) to spent the rest of their days in a dementia resident.

Some ten years ago they arranged an Enduring Power of Attorney for me to manage their affairs. On the 11 May this year it was upgraded to Court of Protection (stamped, dated etc). This was then presented to their bank (Lloyd's TSB) on the 20 May, where the original EPOA gave me access to pay bills etc on their behalf.

29 May Lloyd's legal department informed myself, via the Branch Manager. That the court EPOA was void and I no longer have access to run my parents account. Lloyd's have also agreed that my parents are in capable of running their own affairs.

Both the original EPOA and when presented to the courts were handled by solicitors and witnessed in accordance with the law.

Has any MSE member experienced the above or can help with advice. For my parents will be expected to self fund their stay in the the dementia resident till their money goes below a set level.

Monday morning I will be in touch with my solicitor, plus visit Lloyd's once again to explain the seriousness of their decision. In regard to payment to the dementia home, IE: setting up a direct debit payment. Or will my parents just be left to live in squalor and with out means of support. For all their pensions etc are paid into Lloyd's where they have saved some 45 - 50 years.

Thank you for reading this rather long mail and I pray no one else has to go through this.

4paws

PS: Lloyd's reason for making the EPOA void is " There are no MARGIN NOTES on the document". Sadly the branch manager does not have a clue what this means.

Biggles

It sounds a bit like the document was an unofficial copy, the notes in the LH margin are part of the EPA, as is the front page of notes. You can see a (rather squashed) representation of the form lower down this page http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1990/Uksi_19901376_en_2.htm. Is yours like this? I trust you still have the original in your possession.

However, if the Office of the Public Guardian have registered it, then it will be valid, never mind Lloyds' in-house rules.

I think you need to talk to the OPG, they have quite a good helpline http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/utility/contact.htm and, once they know the problem, may be able to write a letter for Lloyds.

4paws

Morning Biggles

Thank you very much for a quick reply.
Yes I do have the originals.

"the notes in the LH margin are part of the EPA," (missing, never been there from day one)

"as is the front page of notes." (Attached to original EPA)

Is yours like this?
Uksi_19901376_en_2.htm

Sadly no, just part B, worded with

I
Of
Appoint
etc,etc

Then signed by the donor, along with solicitor and witnessed.

I shall print off that page and show both to Lloyd's and my solicitor.

Thank you
4paws

soolin

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margaretclare

If this move is under the Mental Health Acts i.e. they have been 'sectioned' then they should not have to pay.

EdInvestor

margaretclare wrote: »

If this move is under the Mental Health Acts i.e. they have been 'sectioned' then they should not have to pay.

Indeed so, the NHS pays for people who have been put into care under the Act.

4paws

With reference too the above posters (thank you for your time and answer's).

Both parents have Vascular Dementia and each have been deemed unsafe to be alone in the house by their self. Though together they can stay. There are carers visiting 3, sometimes 4 times a day, along with my wife and myself. Sadly even with all this help things have failed.

Their Social Worker, plus two Community Matrons. Have now called in the Mental Health Team, who have been sent all paperwork regarding my parents present state of health.

After personally speaking to the Team Doctor, my parents recently received a home visit from the Mental Health Social Worker. Who has now taken over their well being. Another visit is planed this coming week to do an assessment and there after things will move very quickly. I was advised some weeks ago to find two placements (IE: husband and wife) in a Dementia Residential Home. This has now been done. I also was asked by the Mental Health Team Social Worker if I would like them to transfer my parents from their present home to the Dementia Resident. The answer was yes.

To date all Social Workers have asked if they can self fund, the answer is yes for a set time period. Another question asked, do I know when their money runs out to self fund, a third person may be required to make up the short fall from the council fund to what the home fees will be.

This is the first time anybody has mentioned the NHS may help in this respect, though I have read somewhere (sorry forget where) they may be entitled to £101.00 (or there abouts) per week benefit allowance on mental health grounds ?

4 paws

Biggles

4paws wrote: »

I shall print off that page and show both to Lloyd's and my solicitor.

No, I wouldn't be concerned about doing that; it will just generate another fee from your solicitor and a blank look at Lloyds.

Talk to the OPG - they are the only people who say whether an EPA is valid or not, not your solicitor or any bank's legal department.

Biggles

4paws wrote: »

I have read somewhere (sorry forget where) they may be entitled to £101.00 (or there abouts) per week benefit allowance on mental health grounds ?

That's the standard 'Registered Nursing Care Contribution', payable in respect of anyone who needs nursing care while in a care home.

weanie

My understandng is that if a person has ever been sectioned under the Mental Health Act - then yes the care is free should they ever require it. From a personal point of view - my mother's case as she has Vascular Dementia, this is not always quite so easy.
Mum's behaviours were bizarre and in some instances even violent and very uncharacteristicly selfish and paranoid for some considerable time before we were ever in a position to get her to allow us to approach the doctor and speak up on her behalf.
From a mental health nurse within our own family, advice was such that Mum was indeed eligible for attention and assessment from the local mental health service. This would [at the time] have involved Mum being taken from her home to an institution where she would have been 'assessed' over a period of some weeks. This would have caused a great deal of distress to Mum and also to our father who himself was ill [in fact he died some months later].
To avoid this, we managed the whole thing 'in house' and without any help from S services or the health Service. Since Dad died, we have negotiated with Mum and with al the atention wehave lavished upon her, she has allowed us to help her more and her Vascular Dementia is confirmed and has taken control of her life with lightening speed.
The good news is that we avoided her having to have the turmoil of an assessment and being dragged off kicking and screaming, the consequence though is that we have 'managed' her dementia and she will not need to be detained under the mental health act - just paid for by ourselves or via her sale of house when the time comes for her to leave my full time care.

margaretclare

To date all Social Workers have asked if they can self fund, the answer is yes for a set time period. Another question asked, do I know when their money runs out to self fund, a third person may be required to make up the short fall from the council fund to what the home fees will be.

This appears to be standard, but when a person goes into hospital/secure accommodation under the Mental Health Acts, it is 'mental illness' and not just 'old age which needs care'. A person who is diagnosed as being mentally-ill is treated under the NHS, just like any other illness.

This has been discussed repeatedly in different threads on here, and the SWs appear to take advantage of the fact that, unless this kind of situation has happened before and people have some knowledge, people don't know their rights!

The best response would be to say 'no', when asked if the person can self-fund. It's a health matter, not a social work matter.

This is the first time anybody has mentioned the NHS may help in this respect, though I have read somewhere (sorry forget where) they may be entitled to £101.00 (or thereabouts) per week benefit allowance on mental health grounds?

They are mentally-ill and need treatment under the NHS. The NHS is still 'free at point of use'.