Graduates and school leavers face jobs crunch

alipops1986

Hey Folks :j

Have read this post with interest.

I graduated last year with a 2:1 in English and Education Studies. Then i went straight into employment based route to become a secondary school teacher. This was lucky as it is a paid route.

Through this route, i also gained employment for September back in January.

Alot of my friends, about 85%, have secured a job in their specialist teacher area all over the country.

I really do think it depends on:
a) the subject you do your degree in.
b) the level of your degree
c) what your aiming for.

Since i started at uni [nrly 4yrs ago now!] i wanted to be a teacher, luckily, this is not yet a saturated field - where secondary school teaching is concerned at least.

However, I have friends graduating shortly in: criminology, psychology, Media and Mass Communications, which although originally good degrees jobs are now scarce and these degrees are difficult to use at times.

My advice to anyone considering uni is; only go if there is something you know you want to do and there is actually vacancies within that area or that your degree will fit different jobs.

baby_boomer

alipops1986 wrote: »

This was lucky as it is a paid route.

It's a relief that some graduates actually get paid

As chewmylegoff correctly highlights, it doesn't do to compare graduate salaries from when less than 10% went to university to today when it is almost expected of any half decent A-Level pupil.

But the facts never stopped Bliar from spinning a good yarn .

dylansmum

As a university lecturer I have only sympathy with anyone (grad or not) trying to get a job. I was a teenager in the 1980s so know full well the horror of youth training schemes, poor pay and poor prospects. But it is worth saying a few things:

The expansion in HE is not about less bright kids going to college. There is still a range of abilities and motivations. The expansion, statisically speaking, has been in the skilled and professional occupational classes - lower middle, not working classes. Proven. See Suton Trust. Why this would be a shocker to govt ministers I do not know? Unis can do some things to change entry requirements, but it takes a roots up approach and a real change in attitude about how we deliver education to make a real difference.

Grad salaries: yes the flip side has been grad jobs that may have not needed a degree in the past. Yet employers tell us they want graduates due to the wide skills they have. Rightly or wrongly this is what they say.

Soft subjects: but what is soft? I am always amazed how people assume that non-science = easy. However, we do need to invest in science and technology (ha ha - as if that wil happen).

Students: some do not attend classes and miss out on important employability skills that are embedded in degree courses - as others have said. There is not much we can do except put students through assessments that require participation: but ultimately we should be trying to enthuse, not batter them into submission.

Unis are often (not always) badly managed. They spend around 33% of their budget on teaching. VCs and executive managers get high pay rises (9 % - I ask you?), yet where does YOUR money go? Not on staff I can assure you. Well, lots of nice buildings and 'easy ways' to get feedback - oodles of cash on bars, cafes and computer systems...because in national student surveys this is what the students say they want; so we jump. Because they are customers. And we are service providers.

Unless we change our educational culture (life long learning, day release, equally funded part time degrees, a mix of subjects - as someone else suggested) then this will not change. And a reminder that vocational means lots of things. I am happy to see unis teaching joinery - as long as that vocation is taken up by our nice public school kids? Well, will that happen, really? This is why I worry about dividing voc from academic; actually the two go together on a sound course of any level. To say voc for ex-polys = the same, same old class problem we need to stop being reproduced in HE.

Govt is cutting back on FE and HE yet may lift the cap off fees. If I was a parent/student I'd want to know why only 33% went to the cause. Write to your MP and ask.

lostinrates

dylansmum wrote: »

as long as that vocation is taken up by our nice public school kids? Well, will that happen, really?.

I know a carpenter who went to Rugby, and lots of farmers who went to Ag college, along side people who had got onto the same courses via the FD, ND HND route...., as well as public school boys who didn't renmain in education at all post school. I know plenty of girls who didn't do higher ed too, from ''nice schools' I'm not arguing with the stats but not all puclic school kids go to uni, just as not all comprhensive kids are not unable to get there. Partly of course, because I went to a pulic school and went to Ag college myself!

dylansmum

lostinrates wrote: »

I know a carpenter who went to Rugby, and lots of farmers who went to Ag college, along side people who had got onto the same courses via the FD, ND HND route...., as well as public school boys who didn't renmain in education at all post school. I know plenty of girls who didn't do higher ed too, from ''nice schools' I'm not arguing with the stats but not all puclic school kids go to uni, just as not all comprhensive kids are not unable to get there. Partly of course, because I went to a pulic school and went to Ag college myself!

Yep not saying this does not happen, but what is often implied is that voc = working class...I worry about anything that divides people up on class grounds.

chewmylegoff

dylansmum wrote: »

This is why I worry about dividing voc from academic; actually the two go together on a sound course of any level. To say voc for ex-polys = the same, same old class problem we need to stop being reproduced in HE.

what do you propose - keep them churning out graduates with third rate qualifications just to try to avoid the class stigma? with some notable exceptions, they aren't adding anything in their curent guise, in my view.

it doesn't matter what class you're from, if you get a degree from bolton you've more than likely wasted three years. even if you get a first.

dylansmum

chewmylegoff wrote: »

what do you propose - keep them churning out graduates with third rate qualifications just to try to avoid the class stigma? with some notable exceptions, they aren't adding anything in their curent guise, in my view.

it doesn't matter what class you're from, if you get a degree from bolton you've more than likely wasted three years. even if you get a first.

There we go - you've just ignored what I said. I said that by saying certain colleges should offer pure voc and others pure academic we are missing the point that education is a mixture of things. Secondly, that as HE is already entrenched with class divisions - Cambridge compared to Bolton - then working classes less likely to go to Cambridge (which has nothing to do with natural ability; the system is set up with class barriers embedded that even the uni can't solve alone). As such, working classes more likely to go to Bolton, to use you example.

If you want all people with same ability, regardless of class, to access HE then we have to find ways to break down HE barriers - and a bad start would be to divide institutions in terms of 'real' and non-real unis (have you have just done) and perpetuate this issue. If Cambridge took a real reflection in terms of class then we would not need Boltons, to use your example again.

The alternative is to shut down lots of colleges. And go back to a minority going to college. And that would not solve the issue of access.

I am taking it you work in HE and have first hand knowledge of degrees? I take it you've worked in a number of Unis? Or attended a few?

dylansmum

PS as fees rise (and also for mature students) local colleges are often the only option. Why would we want to make certain local colleges offer only some subjects? Why not aim for all colleges to offer a range?

dieselhead

I am a Architecture student (well for the next few weeks) I have now been studying for 6 years (architecture requires 2 degrees). There are very very few jobs out there. The construction industry has been very very hard hit by the recession.

As far as I can see I have done all the right things, I have had part time jobs in term time, worked in architectural practices in the holidays, participated in architectural conferences and other extra curricular activities, but still work is hard to find.

chewmylegoff

dylansmum wrote: »

There we go - you've just ignored what I said. I said that by saying certain colleges should offer pure voc and others pure academic we are missing the point that education is a mixture of things. Secondly, that as HE is already entrenched with class divisions - Cambridge compared to Bolton - then working classes less likely to go to Cambridge (which has nothing to do with natural ability; the system is set up with class barriers embedded that even the uni can't solve alone). As such, working classes more likely to go to Bolton, to use you example.

If you want all people with same ability, regardless of class, to access HE then we have to find ways to break down HE barriers - and a bad start would be to divide institutions in terms of 'real' and non-real unis (have you have just done) and perpetuate this issue. If Cambridge took a real reflection in terms of class then we would not need Boltons, to use your example again.

The alternative is to shut down lots of colleges. And go back to a minority going to college. And that would not solve the issue of access.

I am taking it you work in HE and have first hand knowledge of degrees? I take it you've worked in a number of Unis? Or attended a few?

but what do you achieve by keeping the boltons as they are, and not doing something with them. if you've got good academic ability, you're not going to go to bolton - you might not get into cambridge but you'll be going to a top half uni at least. people don't just trot off to bolton in order to metaphorically flagellate themselves for being "working class". i'm sure there are plenty of useless ex-public school pupils inhabiting places like bolton as that's all they can get into with their exam results.

this is not a class issue, it's not about sticking working class people in a shed and telling them all they can be is carpenters - it's about not screwing over half a generation by making them think that if they go to uni they will magically create a better future for themselves. this applies equally to someone who has been bought up in hardship as to someone who has a rich daddy. they are being lied to. university is not for everyone, and herding people in like cattle regardless of whether it is likely to help them is not the answer. we cannot all be high flying graduates - even if everyone goes into higher education and they all get first class degrees, some of them will still be better than others, and it is the better ones who will fill the higher earning jobs as there are only a certain number of higher earning graduate jobs to go around.

at the bottom end of the scale, huge numbers of their students drop out without ever completing their degrees, for instance. many of the new universities are running at a 33% drop out rate (or higher). those students that do complete their degrees are still left at a significant disadvantage as their degree has less value.

may be people are being cut out because the universities are discriminating against them, or more likely in my opinion because they cannot afford to pay top up fees or study in more expensive cities. however, that is a separate argument - in my view they'd still be better served by going to no university than settling for one which is a waste of their time and money just because they can go there.

i have to interview graduates as part of my job, and have had to for the last 7 years or so across three institutions, i've come across a good number of them, with a spread across the scale, and i have also seen how they perform in psychometric/aptitude testing.