Solar Power - always a scam??

Cardew

ahai1 wrote: »

Solar energy not a scam as it can provide limited electrcity for parts of the world which do not have electricity.

http://www.thefinancialexpress-bd.com/search_index.php?page=detail_news&news_id=71056 and http://www.solar-aid.org

What has solar energy produced in Bangladesh, got to do with a money saving website in UK?

Nobody is disputing that solar energy might have a role in the future in UK if the technology improves, installation prices reduce and the inevitable cowboys selling systems using outrageous claims - at outrageous prices - are outlawed.

biscit

CFC wrote: »

Thank you. It just shows up the government- euro scam about boilers. The cost of central heating has shot up since the regulations changed - and although the government trumpets that these boilers will save you money, it just shows what a scam it is.

Surely if the cost of heating has shot up, the savings will have shot up proportionatly?

ahai1

I was using it as an example of how much power some of those systems can have and cost of it. Personally in the UK I don't think it can be justified as we have a steady supply of electricity and the cost is too much. The system the article refers to I doubt it can power half my house.

Cardew wrote: »

What has solar energy produced in Bangladesh, got to do with a money saving website in UK?

Nobody is disputing that solar energy might have a role in the future in UK if the technology improves, installation prices reduce and the inevitable cowboys selling systems using outrageous claims - at outrageous prices - are outlawed.

Mutleyk9

Cardew wrote: »

What has solar energy produced in Bangladesh, got to do with a money saving website in UK?

Nobody is disputing that solar energy might have a role in the future in UK if the technology improves, installation prices reduce and the inevitable cowboys selling systems using outrageous claims - at outrageous prices - are outlawed.

Hello All.

I am new here and have been prompted to post because of the many threads regarding solar hot water and in particular to some of Cardew's posts. Hello Cardew.

The question I would like to ask is at what cost do you think a fully installed solar heating system should be in order to make it a viable money saving proposition?

In one post I see that Cardew says that there would be a saving of £30 - £40 per annum if gas is the heating source.

Another gentleman says he has been monitoring his own system and is saving£110 per year.

In this report soltrac.co.uk/forgottenfuel.pdf it says we can expect a saving of £232 per year.

I have installed many panels for companies that charge a very high price in my opinion for these systems but I do think it is a very good product. As Cardew said it is only viable if it comes at the right price.

Some of the better evacuated tubes will produce between 60-70% of all hot water requirements as they are more efficient than the flat panels so that has to be taken into consideration too.

As does this guardian.co.uk/environment/2006/sep/11/energy.business
which states that "The payback time would matter if a solar system added no value. But evidence suggests solar power can add nearly 9% to a property's value".

And this fella http generic.webchats.tv/chat/turning_your_home_green Julian Brooks (honours degree in Environmental Studies and a qualified BRE Eco Homes Assessor) according to npower http generic.webchats.tv/chat/turning_your_home_green
estimates that it is 5%.

Both of these should be considered for a second only..........and then promptly dismissed.

A 1.5% increase on the average priced house may be accurate. I know of some estate agents banding that figure around here on the Dorset coast.

If that were true then it would increase the value of the average home by £3360 as well as increase rating on an energy performance certificate to 'B' or even 'A'. This would mean that if it cost £3360 or less for the solar heating system then payback would be instant, it has just transferred from bank to property equity.

Uswitch say that gas and electricity bills could be as high as £4,733 by the year 2020 which would mean annual savings would be considerable.
uswitch.com/gas-electricity/household-energy-bills/

lloydstsb.com/savings/savings_calculator.asp
If you follow the above link and enter £3000 and say that you want to hold it in a savings account for 11 years it returns a figure of £3567.45p

I have been to customers that have had solar for 20 years and want the system replacing. For whatever reason they are obviously happy with it and think it is worth the money.

Now the panels are far better than they were then and last longer and are cheaper.

So if it could be installed for around £3000 and come with a 20 year guarantee (preferably bonded warranty if that is possible) and have a life expectancy of around 30 years, is it not already a viable option?

Sorry that I cannot put links in but as a new member I am not allowed to.

BFG_2

As the OP of this thread I agree that if the price is right then it may not be a scam.

However the big issue for me is that there are an awful lot of co's out there scamming people - either blatantly by outright lies or with some deception by clever tricks of maths.

Basically my view is

1. At the moment no systems are cost effective, therefore

2. Any company selling on the basis of payback is scamming.

Mutleyk9

I agree with most of that. We were once fitting a system and the customer said to me that she was lucky that the street lamp was directly outside her home!!

You can imagine how that makes a fitter feel and it is totally unnecessary.

If the system is good and at the right price then there should be no need for these tactics. Not that there is any excuse anyway of course.

I would not entertain a sales rep coming anywhere near my house.

I see people now installing for around the £3000 mark and all things considered that looks like a fair price. What I do know is that it certainly is not a greedy price.

The savings to be made though are harder to pin down as accurate figures.

It is a big step away from some of the companies charging 5-7.5K for a system that at best is 1% better in output.

nearlynew

One aspect of solar heating / power generation that has not been discussed is that of security.

Sometimes it's not just about money.

Regardless of overall savings or payback - knowing that you can provide for yourselves (even at reduced capacity) during periods of disruption of supply is worth the cost of installation.
And anything you make / save is a bonus.

After all, how long does, say, a new kitchen or car take to pay you back?

Cardew

Mutleyk9 wrote: »

Hello All.

I am new here and have been prompted to post because of the many threads regarding solar hot water and in particular to some of Cardew's posts. Hello Cardew.

The question I would like to ask is at what cost do you think a fully installed solar heating system should be in order to make it a viable money saving proposition?

In one post I see that Cardew says that there would be a saving of £30 - £40 per annum if gas is the heating source.

Another gentleman says he has been monitoring his own system and is saving£110 per year.

In this report soltrac.co.uk/forgottenfuel.pdf it says we can expect a saving of £232 per year.

I have installed many panels for companies that charge a very high price in my opinion for these systems but I do think it is a very good product. As Cardew said it is only viable if it comes at the right price.

Some of the better evacuated tubes will produce between 60-70% of all hot water requirements as they are more efficient than the flat panels so that has to be taken into consideration too.

As does this guardian.co.uk/environment/2006/sep/11/energy.business
which states that "The payback time would matter if a solar system added no value. But evidence suggests solar power can add nearly 9% to a property's value".

And this fella http generic.webchats.tv/chat/turning_your_home_green Julian Brooks (honours degree in Environmental Studies and a qualified BRE Eco Homes Assessor) according to npower http generic.webchats.tv/chat/turning_your_home_green
estimates that it is 5%.

Both of these should be considered for a second only..........and then promptly dismissed.

A 1.5% increase on the average priced house may be accurate. I know of some estate agents banding that figure around here on the Dorset coast.

If that were true then it would increase the value of the average home by £3360 as well as increase rating on an energy performance certificate to 'B' or even 'A'. This would mean that if it cost £3360 or less for the solar heating system then payback would be instant, it has just transferred from bank to property equity.

Uswitch say that gas and electricity bills could be as high as £4,733 by the year 2020 which would mean annual savings would be considerable.
uswitch.com/gas-electricity/household-energy-bills/

lloydstsb.com/savings/savings_calculator.asp
If you follow the above link and enter £3000 and say that you want to hold it in a savings account for 11 years it returns a figure of £3567.45p

I have been to customers that have had solar for 20 years and want the system replacing. For whatever reason they are obviously happy with it and think it is worth the money.

Now the panels are far better than they were then and last longer and are cheaper.

So if it could be installed for around £3000 and come with a 20 year guarantee (preferably bonded warranty if that is possible) and have a life expectancy of around 30 years, is it not already a viable option?

Sorry that I cannot put links in but as a new member I am not allowed to.

Firstly Mutely9 thank you for stating that you have a vested interest as someone in the solar industry.

The Dorset area where you operate seems to be the hotbed of the industry. I have spoken to the local Trading Standards about the local firms that have come and gone in recent years as well as them being inundated with complaints.

The most important factor is the gross output in kWh of a solar hot water system.

I am not aware of any firm that gives a guarantee of the output of their system, but the Government tests indicate that 1,000kWh pa is about par for Southern England. - less further north.

It is also pertinent to point out that most of that hot water is produced in summer - even the best evacuated tube system will produce next to nothing in January - 30kWh or so.

So if we take 1,000kWh pa. as the benchmark, that is a saving of around £40 with a modern gas boiler. Even less with oil at current rates.

If you are an electric only house, then @10p/kWh you are talking about £100 pa savings - although you perhaps should be looking at an Economy 7 tariff.

Now if you consider £3,000 to be a fair price, let us look at the economics.

Even at today's low interest rates, I can invest £3,000 in a long term bond at 5%(with Nationwide) which will give £150 pa gross and compounded year after year. The Lloyds calculator you give is at a rate of 1.6% gross

Now let us consider guarantees. The panels themselves are not the problem. It is the pump, plumbing and electronics that will never be given a guarantee for more than 5 years if you are very lucky(2 is normal)

What about cleaning of panels situated on a roof?

Talk of a 20 year guarantee for the system is just pie in the sky. Historically the solar industry is riddled with cowboy firms who have just gone out of business and then (allegedly!!) started up again with same people and equipment but a different name for the firm - ask your trading standards about solar or read some of these:

http://uk.search.yahoo.com/search?fr=ybr_bt&y=y&p=bournemouth%20trading%20standards%20solar

Adding value to a house is very subjective. Doubtless some naive potential purchasers will be attracted by the unrealistic claims(and high installation prices) made for solar HW. If they were aware of the realistic savings they were likely to make, it would hardly add any value.

So I stand by my contention that solar hot water is simply a non-starter in the money saving stakes.

P.S.
If you want to discuss this further, please start with the output of your systems in kWh. Unless that is established and agreed any further discussion is meaningless.

Cardew

nearlynew wrote: »

One aspect of solar heating / power generation that has not been discussed is that of security.

Sometimes it's not just about money.

Regardless of overall savings or payback - knowing that you can provide for yourselves (even at reduced capacity) during periods of disruption of supply is worth the cost of installation.
And anything you make / save is a bonus.

After all, how long does, say, a new kitchen or car take to pay you back?

If your electricity supply is disrupted how will the solar Hot water(pump, electronics) operate?

In any case I doubt if my power has been disrupted by more than a couple of hours a year on average.

You don't pretend you buy a new car or kitchen to save money. However the sole financial reason for installing solar IS to save money, so it is hardly a reasonable analogy.

Mojisola

nearlynew wrote: »

One aspect of solar heating / power generation that has not been discussed is that of security.

Sometimes it's not just about money.

Regardless of overall savings or payback - knowing that you can provide for yourselves (even at reduced capacity) during periods of disruption of supply is worth the cost of installation.
And anything you make / save is a bonus.

I understood that the systems automatically shut off if the grid goes down for safety reasons.