Solar Power - always a scam??

BFG_2

True or false?

Solar power doesn't work. Sorry what I mean is there are no solar power systems that are cost effective.

This means that by the very nature of the science, any company selling solar power systems are scammers.

They rely on blatant lies such as 'pays for itself in 6 months' or 'reduces your electricity and gas bills by 75%'

brightonman123

need more input to justify your argument.. have a look at repeats of bbc2's 'its not easy being green' first though..

some ex army chap bought a run down farmhouse (in Devon i think), and has been doing it up with all kind of energy saving stuff- solar heating tubes, wind turbine, water wheel, etc..

choille

There are big strides being made in solar energy & competition is happening with companies.
It is an expensive technology, but prices are coming down.

There used to be a grant available for £5,000, so the prices seemed to raise to meet that price and more. I just saw some from China & they were the cheapest I've seen - however they were still £2,000 a piece & how green is that - hauling goods across the globe?

It's like a lot of the so-called green revolution - for the well-off.
We are involved in house design & eco house design & are also building our own home. But there does seem to be a 'trendy expensive let's get it then we can be green mentality, but a lot of so-called green stuff isn't green - in my book.
Best things you can do is have loads of insulation, energy efficient goods/bulbs if your present ones need replacing, an efficient boiler - again if your present one needs replacing, and/or a wood burner.
We will have a miny hydro system as we have a water fall on the croft, but obviously that is not what most people have.
Our house will face the sun - so loads of solar gain.

In Scotland Building Regulations are now becoming more energy aware - houses are being built with massive amounts of insulation & energy calculations are having to be done - a step in the right direction, before permission is granted.

Solar panels will never pay for themselves at the present prices.

Ben84

From what I've seen, solar water heaters can pay for themselves in a reasonable time period if the right factors are met. You need a good location to mount them, and to be able to replace a reasonably large amount of energy used with them. 1-2 people households probably shouldn't bother if the aim is to save money. Large families, people with pools, businesses and hotels can all benefit from being able to justify buying a bigger system that provides more energy output per pound of original investment. Also, not everyone has cheap mains gas, some people pay high prices for oil, LPG and electric water heating, and with no alternative energy sources. Solar can be much more attractive when compared to a limited number of energy sources.

I don't think it's all bad, some solar water systems are working well and saving people and businesses lots of energy and money. However, some claims I've seen are clearly very optimistic, potentially misleading. Like anything however, if you're going to be spending £1000s on something it's your job to do the maths or find someone you trust who can.

As for solar electric, I'm not aware of many cases where it's likely to be cost effective yet. The panels and equipment are still very costly. As for providing all your energy needs with solar electric, it's not possible in the average house. The few I've seen that provide all their electric with solar panels have gas heating/cookers/hot water and use electric very carefully. By the time you've invested in all the energy savings to make it possible to rely on just solar, your electric use will be very small, both financially and in environmental terms, which then raises the question is there's any good reason to buy solar electric panels.

BFG_2

here's a few supplier website details on payback...
1
Payback
You may well ask what the pay back is for solar water heating systems. Admittedly compared with gas system installations the payback is over ten years.

2
Your total outlay for a solar water heating will usually have been recovered in 10 years or less.

3
Payback 10-15 years

4
The direct payback is around 10 to 12 years for most people

and from RICS

The cost of a greener house

Cost of cavitiy wall insulation
Cavity wall insulation £728
Energy saving per year £145
Payback period 5 years

Cost of loft insulation
Loft insulation (top up to 250mm) £755
Energy saving per year £60
Payback period 13 years

Cost of Hot water cylinder and pipe work insulation
Hot water cylinder and pipe work insulation £761
Energy saving per year £20
Payback period 38 years

Cost of Condensing boilerCondensing boiler £2,000
Energy saving per year £52
Payback period 38 years

Cost of Installation of full heating controls package
Installation of full heating controls package £2,240
Energy saving per year £65
Payback period 34 years

Cost of Double glazing
Double glazing £9,327
Energy saving per year £75
Payback period 124 years

Cost of solar water heater
Solar water heater £5,000
Energy saving per year £24
Payback period 208 years

Cost of Concrete floor
Concrete floor £2,736
Energy saving per year £45
Payback period 61 years

thescouselander

I am currently reading a good book on this subject called "Sustainable Energy - Without the hot air".

It can be downloaded for free from here http://www.withouthotair.com/

Basically is gives an objective view on sustainable energy in a way thats relitivly easy to understand. It debunks a lot of myths put about by both sides of the climate change debate. I'd recommend reading it if you have the time.

Bongedone

Those RICS figures are absolute bol*****.

For most items the savings figures are well below the real figures and the installation figures are well above.

BFG_2

Bongedone wrote: »

Those RICS figures are absolute bol*****.

For most items the savings figures are well below the real figures and the installation figures are well above.

so the real figures are.......??????????????????

slipp_digby

Just my opinion, but i see a lot of commerical installations of these technologies. I assume you question is about applications in the home.

Solar DHW can be highly effective, payback is dependant upon the profile of hot water usage. Great if your a hotel, !!!!!! all use if you are at work all day and not using hot water ot maximise the amount of pre-heating it does.

PV panels are expensive and produce relatively small outputs with long payback periods.

While I wouldnt say 'scammers' I think that the green marketing myths are very easy to get caught up in and true independant tests of technology in situ are few and far between. You have to wonder why, when the costs of doing trials are relatively small, and manufacturers make such grand claims, that most of them never 'prove' theri technologies. Many papers on specific technologies are sponsored (read bought) by the companies marketing the technologies.

The Merton Rule has brainwashed people that renewables are a stand alone anwer. While they are part of the answer, it is argueably as important to build a well insulated shell which is air tight with tightly controlled low power ventilation.

Part of the appeal of solar is also the ability to retrofit and its visibility (sustainability bling).

I'm far from convinced.

Bongedone

BFG wrote: »

so the real figures are.......??????????????????

Have a look at the Energy Saving Trust website.

I also use Energy performance certificate software and the savings in that software are far higher than the RICS figures.

BRE and the National Energy Centre are the guys who produce the energy figures.

For instance an A rated condensing boiler runs at 92% efficiency. If that is replacing a 15 year old standard boiler that runs at 65% efficiency then you are going to reduce your gas bills by 27% (ignoring cooking). That certainly adds up to more than £52 a year.

I agree that solar is a rich mans game. You need to be thinking long term with that one. The payback period that RICS says will be a lot more than reality though.

chopperharris

Theres been some recent breakthrough in solar based power generation , thin film collector and directors mean that they can be fitted to windows or even whole car bodies.This isnt a crystal pv large area collection but if used on top of them increases the power generation by 80 percent.

Solar water heating , using vacuum tubes , works for those with expensive or high co2 generated heat and or power even in low sun areas like northern scotland.If the new tech is used as a cover stock for the vaccum tubes then it will be self powered pumping to storage tank.

If you use the swh system combined with gas condensing boilers as a closed loop heating system then its a good option in certain situations , ie older big houses.

We need to rethink the power usage in the home , there is no reason why we still use 240 for lighting if using solar and long life rechargable batteries would reduce a 1/3 of our bills.Even tvs and computers use a step down convertor from 240 to 12-24 dc which is wasted energy and increased production costs to the consumer.

The key to self generation through wind and solar is to fuel the grid , not merely fill batteries that are expensive and have a limited lifespan.Harnessing the free energy , then having the power companies take this energy at more than you pay for yours from them means that you are getting free energy when you need it ....and without batteries and its expense.