£15k overpayment So they say

samdavis

Ever since claiming CTC we have had nothing but major problems with them. Overpayments they have demanded back, double payments etc. In 2006 they said we had been overpaid by nearly 8k. We got onto our MP and the eventual outcome was we had been underpaid by £640. As they couldn’t somehow manage to pay us directly into our account they gave us Giros which we cashed. BUT at the end of the year their computer looked like it was paying two lots out a month, one by Giro which it was, and the other into our account, which it wasn’t. So we got a letter saying we had been overpaid. So onto the MP we got and after a lengthy investigation they got to the bottom of it all and found out we had actually been underpaid by £640. It looked like to them we had been getting two lots of payments per month.

So that was that and we got through it. In February 2009 we came home to find we couldn’t get through the front door. After opening it there were 25 cheques from CTC to the value of nearly £8k. I immediately phoned CTC and told them there must have been some mistake. It wasn’t possible to get 25 cheques to the value of £8k and it be right.
The lady went off the phone to check with her manager as she thought it was strange too. She came back on after 5 minutes and said the cheques were mine. There had been an underpayment in 2004, 2007, 2008 and 2009 and it was money owed to me. I said to her, these calls are recorded aren’t they, she replied Yes, I said are you 1 million percent sure these cheques are mine to spend as I have just been diagnosed with terminal cancer and these things don’t happen to me. She said she had the leger in front of her and they were 1 million percent sure the money was mine from a underpayment. I then asked again if they were sure and they said YES Mr **** the money is yours.

I was elated. Nearly £8k of being underpaid. I had done my homework and called them and they 100% have told me the money is mine. What more can one do? I went out and bought a car ours had fallen to bits.


The following week in the post we had a tax credits annual statement saying we had been overpaid by nearly £16,000. We could not believe our eyes. You could not make it up. We immediately phoned then and they sent out a dispute form. We filled it in and got onto our local MP again who wrote in asking for clarification. On the week commencing 1st May 2009 we had a call from the investigation team at tax credits asking if we still had the £7k from February. I said no, it was mine I even checked on the phone and they categorically stated it was my money. I have bought a car. I told them to play back the tapes, they were the investigation team, investigate and play back the tapes. He said we would have asked for it back if you had it in the bank as the Giros should have never have been sent to you in the first place. I said I rang and checked Please play the recordings back as you record all calls. I called and queried it and you said catagorically the money was mine from an underpayment so I bought a car.

Every year we have had problems with tax credits. We have declared everything even my cancer. I have even periodically called in to check if we were getting the right amount. It doesn’t make one iota of difference they still manage to completely ruin our lives getting it wrong year after year. Why call me in MAY asking if I had spent the money from February when I was told the money was mine to spend. Check the calls, they are recorded I said to him. It will prove I checked within 10 minutes of getting these cheques.
I said to the investigator this had happened before when CTC claimed I had been overpaid by £7k, as it turned out they owed me money as it had been showing up on their computers I had been getting double payments, one in Giro form and one in the bank. WE HADNT!!! We had only received the Giro one as you told us you couldn’t pay it into the bank and now you tell us we have been getting both. Here you are check my statements,,,,,,where are your payments?? He didnt even know about this in 2006 some investigation team.


The investigator didn’t have a clue this had happened to us before and in 2006 we had to get our MP involved. Now CTC are telling us we owe them £15k as an overpayment. WE HAVE NEVER EVER HAD MORE THAN £200 PER WEEK IN CTC. We have never been overpaid. I asked the investigator what year was this from, he couldn’t tell me. I asked him how we had been overpaid? He couldn’t tell me. He didn’t know. All we get told is, You have been overpaid now pay it back. They say they are writing to my MP, who knows when.

I told him I could do without this I am dying of cancer. I don’t want to leave my wife fighting with you all. I haven’t had a change in circumstances in 5 years I have been on Income Support HOW can you get it so very wrong. I am still non the wiser.

HELP We dont know what do to or where to turn. We know we havent had more money that we should have had. I think i would have noticed a £15k overpayment.


Pplease help us

diddlydum

If you know roughly when you called, and which phone number you rang from, they can find the tape pretty quickly. All HMRC calls are routinely taped.

If they told you they were yours and you were entitled to them then it is an official error and they should write the money off. However they tend to argue the toss with giros as they claim the giros specifically state that you might accrue an overpayment by cashing them.

It might be worth getting a specialist benefits adviser to take up the case for you. Either try your local CAB or call Community Legal Advice on 0845 345 4345. Advice will be free as you're on IS. Specialists are able to speak to senior HMRC advisers on a dedicated line and can usually get things sorted out a lot quicker.

longhotbath

Samdavis - I have just pm'd you..

samdavis

THanks have emailed. Will let you know the outcome....

pupsicola

No real advise as never been in this situation and wouldn't know what to do if I was.

Sending you a huge cyber hug though as this must be a nightmare for you at a time when you should be solely concentrating on your health.

If you know when you called and all the calls are taped then you can prove what you were advised. Tax credits are in the wrong here and there is the potential for being able to prove this. I would ask your gp to write to them and advise that the stress they are causing you is affecting your health at a time whne you are very seriously ill.

They should change there approach to this altogether, its plain wrong.

Sarah

alwaysonthego_2

I would second going to the CAB and asking for help there. I once helped a client who had been overpaid by £8000. I rang TCO on behalf of the client and it turned out that someone in TCO had deleted her work hours and salary from the system so therefore making her not entitled to WTC. TCO have a dedicated number that the CAB can use to get straight through to an adviser.

sinstar

The tax credits computer system has an error that means that some claims can't be paid into a bank account. Sometimes the error has always existed on a claim, sometimes it suddenly happens.

When the system can't accurately calculate your payments & pay them into a bank account, there is a manual payments team that look over your circumstances, manually calculate how much tax credits you should get, and manually issue out giro cheques.

The 'broken' claim is still present on the system, and there are notes left in it by the manual payments team explaining the dates & amounts of payments. Advisors can read these notes and advise people accordingly of their payment schedule, but at first glance the claim they are looking at looks, for the most part, like any other claim that is not error filled.

The company that created the tax credits computer system is trying to repair the errors that are preventing these 'broken' claims from being paid into a bank account. So while they are working away in the background 'repairing' a claim, the system is doing all sorts of things - trying to set up a payment schedule, issuing out letters, etc etc. While it is being repaired & the system tries to set up payments, bank account payment schedules can appear (making it look as though you have been paid twice - bank payments & giro payments). Any giro payments received can also turn up in the payment schedule of the wrong year, also making it look like you have been overpaid.

The worrying thing is a lot of helpline advisors don't seem to even be aware that all of this can be happening to a claim, and may go by what parts of the system says even though it can be entirely inaccurate. What is also probably inaccurate is your award notices - they will have a payment schedule on them which may effectively be meaningless (the system is creating a schedule for you, but it is meaningless because your actual payments and schedule are being calculated by a manual payments team). Your overpayment letters may be meaningless as well.

Some advisors, clueless about the original reason you are receiving manual payments, may try to 'correct' this and get your claim paying into a bank account. If they can't even see with their own eyes why you are being manually paid, they probably can't accurately tell you what payments are and aren't yours. But naturally, you will believe what they tell you on the phone.

Next time you phone the helpline ask to speak to a team leader, advise the advisor that your claim is in manual payment due to a system error and that you need to speak to someone who is experienced and can seperate the fact from fiction in your error filled claim. Get a dispute form and dispute every overpayment, advising on the dispute form that a system error has forced your claim into manual payment & you want the existence of each overpayment investigated. This should suspend recovery. Also get an advisor at the helpline to send a referral to the Tax Credit Office explaining the same thing, and advising them you want a written explanation of all overpayments, because you can't be certain they actually exist.

I can't say for sure this is what is happening with your own claim obviously, but it sounds like it might be the case.

samdavis

Received a letter today from my MP as I said I was going to go to the papers about this. He has sent my claim and emails to the top man apparently and I will efinately have a resolution next week.

Thanks to all.

Crisp_£_note

Hi Samdavis I am sorry you have had to endure this as well as being in ill health.

I cant advise on any of the matter but was wondering in such important cases should any ever arise, if it would be legal for me to record our telephone converation some way? It's surely just as easy for them to say they wiped the tapes or actually never recorded anything or words were twisted to suit their favour at the time? At least if you did it yourself there would actually be some backup evidence, I am sure there are ways of taping a telephone conversation legaly, obviously you would need to make the other person aware it is being recorded and ask them to confirm their consent.

Good luck and best wishes.

SuziQ

I really do sympathise. I have been told I had an overpaymentn3 years in a row amounting £2-3 grand. The last o/p dispute is still ongoing since oct 2007 and they are even claiming back an overpayment I had repaid which they repaid when they decided it was their error not ours. It is so frustrating as the advisors on the general line and the o/p dispute team tell you totally different things. I reall hoope you get a result - as you say,when you are ill you can do without this carp! I am typing this from my hopsital bed so sympathise totally.