MONEY MORAL DILEMMA. Should Lofty hold out for his dream job?

ethika

Yes he should take any job going. Just hope his experience is better than mine. Some years ago I returned to England after a divorce and leaving a senior executive job. As a single mum I took a job as a waitress to tide me over till I could get a job in my own field. Sadly when a job, lowr than my previous exec work, came along, even personally knowing my history and reputation, my new employer said that as a waitress I was lucky to have the chance at this opportunity and he would pay me half the going rate! As it wsd more than my pay as a waitress I took it and within 2 years earned a good enough reputation that I was head hunted and left that mean employer - who by the way never gave me a pay rise in the 2 years!

spursliz

Why should he expect to be supported by everyone else? Very few of us have our dream jobs; this "your money is my money" attitude is totally wrong. A few months of stacking shelves will surely concentrate his mind on really trying to find a job more suited to his abilities but in the meantime he should be earning his own keep.

leathersofa

If the person studying pure traditional subjects like maths and English likes them, why don't they choose a career that uses them at the level taught?

Because apart from teaching at university level, there are very few jobs that actually require that. Maths I don't know enough about to say, but for most arts subjects such as languages, English and history, jobs using the subject are very rare and highly sought-after, which in turn means few graduates are going to get them. Most people with a degree in French or Italian would love to be an interpreter, but it's not going to happen. Most people with a degree in history would love to be David Starkey, but again no. What these degrees give you is education and transferable skills and you have to adapt when it comes to employment. But what i am trying to say is that that does not mean that everyone should do business studies instead! This underlines the fact that since polys became new universities there are two sorts of degree: academic ones, like pure sciences, languages, English, yes, and even Greek, and vocational ones, like physiotherapy, business courses, green management, tourism and so on. They are NOT the same thing. One lot is not worse than the other, and people doing either sort do not deserve to be slagged off as doing 'mickey mouse degrees' by then other lot. But they aren't the same and shouldn't be regarded in the same light. The posters here who are saying 'university courses are a con and not worth the money' are thinking (I hope) of the second sort, because their attitude as i understand it is 'these courses are repsented as vocational training courses with a job at the end and that has not been my experience'. Fair enough. But that doesn't mean that that attitude has to be extrapolated to the more traditional kind of degree in an academic subject, because on the whole people don't go into these courses seeing them as vocational training and expecting a job using most of the subject-matter they've learned at the end. And as long as that was their attitude at the start, I don;t see a problem.


It really is a becoming a 30 y/o teenager (more like 24 y/o unless you assume they won't get a job for 6 years) it makes it seem like they are just deferring their career choice till after university.

But if a person either has a willing financial backer (well, some do!) or else can support themselves with p-t work while they study, what's the problem? There is study, and then there's work. If someone can afford to study something they want to without being a burden to anyone else, then how does that harm anyone? This is still a free country.

wishface

Early_Lady wrote: »

I think that there is a great misunderstanding here. The benefits system is not a cushion, and should be regarded as a personal choices option, the benefits system was created after the last war as a response to the appalling mid wars conditions. The benefits system is a safety net for those who have no choice, and it has suffered greatly from misuse and misunderstanding. It was and always was intended to be a short term help for those who have suffered a disaster. Lofty does not seem to be one of those people.

How has it suffered? The only cause of the problems within the welfare system is the interference and directives of the state who seem to think that hiring businessmen with no experience of welfare, benefits or the system, and ignoring the advice of people who do know about such things. James Purnell is a much greater abuser of the benefits system than any given claimant. It's not suffering and isn't really being abused at all. Despite what the Daily Mail would like you to think.

Lots of things don't work as they were 'intended'; the banking system wasn't intended for people to make a quick buck at the expense of the pensions of millions. Politics wasn't intended to be a fast track to corporate success, or a gravy train for the elite. You can't blame people for claiming benefits - what else would you have them do? Starve? Perhaps that's the world you'd like to live in, stepping over the bodies of the cold and the poor lining the streets on your way to work. I for one don't want to return to the bad old days of poorhouses and workhouses.

Early_Lady wrote: »

Lofty has been given, totally free of charge, education up to a certain age,and he has chosen to take it further.

The average tax payers of this country have no choice about paying tax, yet Lofty is making choices for himself that affect those tax payers.

No he isn't. How has his choice to learn skills - with the experss intention of using them in work - affected taxpayers?

Early_Lady wrote: »

He should get a job, any job and start paying tax, paying the rest of us back.

Why are you so eager for him to 'pay YOU back'? Do you begrudge people gaining knowledge? That's a terrible indictment of our society if we decide that the only people who can have knowledge (and knowledge is power) are the ones with the means to pay for it (and pay for it according to what you deem accceptable).

It would be worse I think for him to get an education that he must then waste because the system forces him to take a job that doesn't use those skills. Why don't you complain about that instead, rather than exercise your bitterness about someone else learning something. How has his decision to learn skills affected you? How does his claiming benefit consequently affect you?

Early_Lady wrote: »

If you are in a job, you are more likely to be able to get another job, as you have work related experiences to demonstrate capability.

Maybe, maybe not. There is no guarantee of anything these days.

Early_Lady wrote: »

So poor Lofty feels that shelf stacking is beneath him? He has a nice degree and wants "something better" does he spare a thought for the taxpayers who have funded him in his education, his use of the NHS and any other "public" facilities he has ever used? The taxpayers who have not progressed through the education system as far as he has, are absolutely stuck with "shelf stacking" jobs, and who is lofty to deride them? without all support employment, such as street cleaners, refuse collectors, shelf stackers and so on, we would all be up to our necks in rubbish, waste, unable to get anything done, and would he appreciate their services then? He should start valuing different jobs and the people who do them a little more and realise how little he contributes.

It's not q eustion of being 'beneath him'. It's a question of using his skills and his mind to do something rewarding and inspiring that's probably more valuable and willultimately contribute more to society in the long run anyway. Yet all people can do is take a blinkered short term perspective. The world won't come crashing down because there aren't enough supermarket shelf stackers! Perhaps you should stop assuming you know what this guy thinks.

Early_Lady wrote: »

Please forgive me for being blunt, but I have worked in the benefits system for many years, I have met many people who were too thick to realise benefits is not a career choice, but also met many people who would not have survived without help.

Bluntness is the new PC, arrest the guilty don't promote them.

So you work in the benefits system and are quite content to call people 'thick'.

:rolleyes:

topgranny

Lofty should definitely take the job. Not only will it give him something to do and a bit of cash to live on, it will also show prospective future employers that he's not a shirker and that he wants to work.

I only ever had to claim benefits for one period in my life, due to illness, and it felt awful. I am full of admiration for those who would rather do any work than live off benefits. More power to their elbows!!

:T:T:T:T:T:T

sammyzue

Habbie66 wrote: »

My brother-in-law gave up a well paid skilled job to go to university. He got his degree and started applying for jobs. He went on benefits and kept applying for jobs that used his degree skills. That was 14 years ago and he hasn't worked since! For ten years he lived off his parents and got paid as their carer. During this time he also got several grants from the Benefits Agency to start his own business - which never got off the ground. For the last 4 years he has lived off his wealthy girlfriend. Should Lofty take the job - damn right he should.

I think this is a tough one as the above quoted case is obviously not the norm! I found myself in a similar situation last August after finishing my masters. I survived on what was left of my overdraft but it ran out after a few weeks and I still had no job. I signed on and was on the dole for three weeks before landing a great job which I have now been in for nearly eight months. In hindsight I know I made the right choice as I have easily paid the cash back into the system many times over in the few months I've been working and to go through a recruitment process only to leave a job a fortnight later would have been doing a great disservice to the employer at whichever service industry job I had managed to get to tide me over.
However i do admit that in the currecnt economic climate the chances of that 'right' job coming along are reduced from when I was in the situation.

Tiger_greeneyes

Of course he should work in his supermarket job until he gets his dream job. So what if he's been studying for a few years? There are many people who are in a job that isn't their dream job and they've been working and paying into the system for far longer than he's been studying. Why should be get to put up his feet until he gets what he wants because he was a student, when other people are in the real world? I worked for 23 years before I landed my dream job - we all have to start somewhere. The experience he'll gain will be useful so it's not the complete waste of time he might think it is.

There are too many people who believe they are so much better than the hoy polloy and won't accept anything less than ideal or perfect instead of pitching in and doing their bit. Employers are much more likely to favour someone who's been in regular employment, even if it's on the bottom rung of the ladder, than they are to choose someone who's been festering on the dole because they don't want to get their hands dirty.

I'm opinionated today lol!

johncolescarr

Ebenezer_Screwj wrote: »

Lofty should take any job that’s going as these so-called degrees from so-called universities are not worth the paper they are printed on and prospective employers know this full well. We now have an entire generation who are barely educated past primary level and who are totally ignorant of the wider world outside of moronic television personalities, mobile phones and “networking” websites.

Lets not forget the many worthwhile and useful degrees, Engineering, Science, Medicine, Dentistry, Optometry, Pharmacy, Law, Accountancy, Modern Languages, Education etc etc. I also think that experience is just as important as qualifications, but a good degree does benifit someone if that is their aim and ambition.

I wholeheartedly agree that there are some simply useless courses on offer now. In some peoples quest to get that all important degree, no matter what the course, many find themselves after 3 years with lots of debt and no real skills. The huge numbers of those going to Uni now also takes away the importance of 3-5 years hard slog required from a proper course whilst you watch many in easy degrees having 2 hours of lectures a week when you have 30+ with another 20 hours expected self study!

I like your point on the ridiculous role models and pass times. Ask many (and I'm afraid to say young people, even though I put myself in this category) to name 5 prominant politicians or explain the Isreal/Palistine war and you get blank faces, yet they can happily reel off all the winners of Big Brother!

Katie-Kat-Kins

glitterjunkie wrote: »

I am Lofty too! :rotfl:

I graduated in July 2008 with a law degree, and am currently working 2 jobs (sales assistant in a department store, and barmaid in a pub!), oh and also doing voluntary work with Citizens Advice Bureau. I would say Lofty really has no choice - if you sit around waiting for your dream job to turn up, you will be waiting a very long time! Presumably he has bills to pay like the rest of us, so he will just have to get over it and take the supermarket job - it's better than nothing. Bills will not pay themselves!

Having said that, it is difficult for graduates at the moment I think. Since I took on my department store job, I've had to give up the unpaid work experience I was doing with a law firm, as I don't have a day off to do it. It's a real catch-22 situation...to get a law training contract it often is about who you know, and making contacts, so you need to do as much work experience as possible. BUT working at an unrelated job e.g. in a shop makes it impossible to get this work experience... which I am worried might seriously harm my chances of a future job. If I was on the dole, I'd be able to continue with it and hopefully in the longer term it might improve my prospects...whereas working 2 jobs like I am now might be giving me money in the short term, but is not doing much for my future career!

I don't know what the answer is Shame we don't all have rich parents to support us...but anyway, my gut feeling is still that Lofty should get a job and not expect the taxpayer to support him. If he only works in the evenings he'll be in a better position than me, as he will have time to do work experience which is relevant to his degree in the daytimes!



Totally agree with this too. I have to admit I walked out of uni thinking I'd get a job straightaway, just because of the piece of paper I had. This past year has been a huge wake-up call for me, believe me!

As someone who has been in this position my advice would be to get a very junior position at a law firm. It will be a foot on the ladder and will make you some valuable contacts. You will gain some great experience and have the opportunity to impress senior lawyers with your work ethic and enthusiasm. At the firm where we work we have law graduates doing the filing, working on reception and working in secretarial roles, they apply for more senior positions when they come up and have a huge advantage over external candidates because they know the interviwer personally and have established a good record at the firm. They also require less training as they are familiar with the systems, the people and the values of the firm.

My advice to Lofty would be to do the same whatever his field may be, get a junior job and work your way up, keep applying for more senior roles and just explain at interview that there weren't the jobs when you came out of uni so you got a foot on the ladder to build experience and gain knowledge while supporting yourself. No interviewer worth their salt would turn their noses up at that, it is much more positive than being on the dole or taking an unrelated job. Although an unrelated job is better than going on the dole, any experience can be talked round to being relevent. Especially if you cover yourself in glory wherever you go and take on extra responsibilities. Get involved in training, become a key holder or supervisor it all looks good.

Personally it took me a few months to get a job out of uni, I had my first interview before leaving, my second in the september after leaving but didn't start until February as it was a job on a new contract that started late. I continued in my student bar job during this time but was able to tell the interviwer about all the additional responsibilities I had taken on.

For any undergraduates out there, start applying for graduate positions in your second year! Lots of big employers recruit years in advance!!!!!

npw32jnw

What Lofty, and indeed all graduates out there need to recognise is that the degree you study for does not necessarily get you to the job you want. Think creatively about what you apply for. My example is a law degree, but rather than going direct into the law, I got into insurance, which uses all the skills I learnt from the degree, but aimed in a different way. Also meant that I ended up with much less debt than my peers because they did even more training courses and then worked for peanuts on training contracts.

Those who have solid degrees, and well rounded experiences in life outside education, will always be at an advantage, whatever the economic environment.

Good luck to all those searching for their dream job!