Selling your house to pay for care in panorama

jenniferpa

I'm going to weigh in on this. My mother (88) had a stroke (well, 3) last year and was unable to continue living on her own. I'm an only child and I live in the US, so she couldn't live with me because there was no way I could get medical insurance for her, and we couldn't afford to self-fund. She is fortunate in that she was a teacher, so she gets both an occupational and a state pension (although it ticks me off that she has to pay income tax on that, but that's another story). Also, she gets the full rate attendance allowance (£60.60 per week). She owned her own house (£110,000), plus, she had around £50,000 of savings. We sold the house and purchased a "luxury suite" in an extra care facility. On the basis of her current care needs (and of course, that will probably change) she will be spending about £3000 of her capital each year, over and above her pensions and AA. Do I wish I could get further assistance? You bet I do. Would I have been able to place her as I have if she didn't have these savings? No way. Would I have been happy with the other options available (home care or nursing/residential home)? No I wouldn't. Her savings which we will spend as necessary has given her options which many elderly people do not have. Yes, it would be nice if there was something left over, but as someone else said, I'm an adult and I can take care of myself. She's in a lovely facility, with her own things around her, meals, cleaning, laundry etc. provided. She has consistent care from the same people (important as she has memory problems). The suites are attached to a nursing home, so there's 24hr onsite care available.

In a perfect world, all this would be available without a fee, but it isn't, so you just have to suck it up. In a perfect world she would be able to live with me, but you know what? I realise after spending 2 weeks with her, that I do not think I could provide the quality of care that she is getting there. It's a lowering reflection to realize this, but I don't think I could cope with the memory problems, the constant repetition, the lack of time awareness, and so on and so on. Sorry, I digress.

Anyway, if you love someone that that person is elderly, you had just better make up your mind that there will be no inheritance, and be grateful for what you get.

Jennifer

chugalug

Another thing that I would find degrading is that if you have to go into residential care your pension is stopped to help pay. Fair enough - as I said before my mum is 80, blind and has had a stroke so won't be going home. I cant choose her care because neither of us have any savings or a high income. My mum currently has a war widows pension but when she goes into residential care she will be allowed £16 pw 'pocket money'. Insulting. Out of this she has to buy her clothes, toiletries, talking books, Christmas and Birthday presents (she likes to buy for her grandchildren and why shouldnt she?) and anything else personal she needs. She's only had a relatively decent income since she retired (at 68) and now she'll be reduced to 'pocket money'.

Dora_the_Explorer_5

Jenniferpa, thanks explaining how you managed things and for spelling out the finances.
chugalug, I can understand your feelings. Perhaps a different way of looking at things is that your mother will use her retirement pension, higher rate of attendance allowance and war widow's pension to pay for for her care and the local authority will fund the balance. You will be able to choose your mum's care to a certain extent by visiting as many care homes that will meet her needs and choosing the one you feel most comfortable with.
I do understand that £16 is not a vast sum of money but of course nothing prevents a person's children/relatives buying them something each week - toiletries, perhaps a new jumper, and paying for their book subscriptions. I found with my parents that was something I was very happy to do as it lessened my guilt at not being able to look after them - and with support that would have been possible, it just wouldn't have worked for me and perhaps not for them either. Also, they had helped me out when I was younger, so it was my turn to help them out.
Even so although I did this there was less and less that they wanted or needed, apart from biscuits, sweeties, flowers and fruit every week and when my mum died a couple of months ago she had even managed to save money! My stepdad pays for his Sky subscription with his weekly £16, and his birthday, Christmas and Father's day has him inundated with enough new clothes to keep him going for a year.
Whatever kind of residential care is decided on, the key to everything being ok is through relatives being vigilant, and questioning anything that they don't understand and ensuring that they know exactly what should be happening.
Hope this helps.

margaretclare

jenniferpa wrote:

In a perfect world, all this would be available without a fee, but it isn't, so you just have to suck it up. In a perfect world she would be able to live with me, but you know what? I realise after spending 2 weeks with her, that I do not think I could provide the quality of care that she is getting there. It's a lowering reflection to realize this, but I don't think I could cope with the memory problems, the constant repetition, the lack of time awareness, and so on and so on. Sorry, I digress.

Jennifer, be reassured. There IS no way that you could provide the quality of care that your mother is receiving. Just simply because you are only one person, you can't do everything 24/7, physically, psychologically, every which way. Your mother has a team of people to meet her needs, and with all the goodwill and the love in the world, you couldn't possibly do it.

Nothing is for free. The 'free' care that people talk about is not free, it comes out of someone's pocket, most likely the taxpayer.

Best wishes

Aunty Margaret

margaretclare

lynzpower wrote:

Thinking about meals on wheels or other home care services. The savvy consumer ( or a savvy close relative) can save themselves money by getting direct payments and employing someone to do the homecare jobs direct. Where I work its £8 per hour for cleaning, but you can get a student or part time neighbour or someone to do it for the minimum wage ( as thats al the agency staff end up with anyway out of the whole she-bang) Additionally meals on wheels with us is 3.95 if the client buys direct from our provider, 3.50 if they get it through us. Im sorry, but you can get a nice M&S meal for that, much more nutritionally balanced and better value for money. Lots of meals on wheels are delivered frozen in any case. We charge 8-9 PH for someone to do shopping with the list- again you could pay a neighbour or a teenager you trust to do those things. I do spread the MSE message where I can to old folk and make suggestions for them to go private wherever they can.

I feel between a rock and a hard placewith it as many of my clients have been living in a 350,000 ( far too big for thier needs too and expensive to run) home but then are under the 20k threshold. What do you have to do at working age when you can't afford to live, you sell your assets and pay what you can. I think it unfortunate that the cradle to grave mission was never achievable with an ageing population (which was bound to happen with a creation of NHS!) but people believe that they are "entitled" , its very difficult to decide where I'm at TBH.

Of course being a "recipient" can be disempowering, but i reckon enough thinking about it through the working life, get the MSE tips under your belt and stash a bit away can make retirement and needing support cheaper when it can be.

Hi lynz

The issue of meals-on-wheels charges is a live one around where I live - the price is going up and older people are said to be 'up in arms'.

There used to be a 90-year old lady lived near me (dead now) and every Friday a van used to arrive and deliver frozen meals. Think it was called Farmhouse Foods or some such. She never had meals-on-wheels, she preferred to have the weekly delivery.

If I was ever in that situation - housebound etc - I think I'd shop online and get e.g. Tesco Finest frozen meals. I also think people are hung up on the idea that you have to have a hot meal daily containing meat, potatoes and veg. There are lots of other perfectly-nutritious alternatives.

I've heard of people living in a large house, too large for their present needs, but not wanting to 'downsize' because 'it was the family home, it's the children's inheritance'. These same people are worried about 'losing the house to pay for their care'. Sometimes you hear of this with a relatively young person, e.g. a 60-year old widow, worrying about what might happen in 20 or more years' time!

I live in a 2-bedroom bungalow, can't downsize any more, but my first husband and I used to live in a pair of weaver's cottages, 3-storeys, in the Pennines, and we 'downsized' to something more manageable back in 1990.

This idea of 'being entitled' is causing big problems with the free bus-pass scheme, and I've written about this on another thread. People in a neighbouring town are rushing to apply for this freebie just because it is free, even if they may never use it!! They don't realise that every one costs the council money. Me, I'm sending mine back.

Another point to mention - at the time of the 'cradle-to-grave' idea, immediately post-WWII, where you went as an old person if you couldn't manage at home, wasn't a nice comfy nursing home or the like. It was to a geriatric ward in a hospital which had itself been a workhouse infirmary under the old Poor Law system, which existed until the 1930s. My own grandad died in an ex-workhouse infirmary in early 1948 just before the NHS. It was the only bed in the whole county and it was 40 miles from where we lived. There were strict visiting hours and when my mum visited it would take her all day to get there and get back, with an hour's visiting in the middle. You certainly got that free, but it's not what people would want nowadays. People's expectations have changed, you see!

Aunty Margaret

Somerset

All of the posts have merit and truth in them - some people work but don't have material assets, what the threshold should be etc etc....

Not debating the moral side here ..... just what will happen in practice. Note what the OP said about protecting her house so her children can benefit. People are not fools. If you make those with money fund their old age care, while those without assets get this free .... people will sell up/transfer to kids/use tax loopholes/not save. Remember the government urging us to provide for our own pensions ......... with a poor takeup .... people similarly thinking well if I don't save the govt pension will do, so I'll spend it now. Remember Labour in the '70's taxing the super rich at 80% or 90% ... fine in theory but what happened in practice was they left and became tax exiles. The theory is one thing ..... the practical results are often the opposite of what was anticipated. As I said people aren't fools.

Crossy

My father-in-law who is 82 was hospitalised recently, he was told by the nursing sister that he would not be allowed home on his own, and would have to sell his house to pay for his care. He told her he lived in council accommodation and was promptly sent home!.

ps we have asked him to live with us, but he wants independance.

xycom1

marylee wrote:

Has anybody watched panorama where the social worker asked the family to sell the house to pay for care? I have always thought the socila worker is supposed to support the family. I find the programme very upsetting when you think most of us hard working citizen who have worked hard all our life to save and then had to sell the family home to pay for cares.

I do agree somebody has to pay but it does not seem fair to me there are some people who do not think anything about saving for the future and since they will have no assets, their care will be funded. Is there anything that could be done to minimize this?

Yes, campaign to scrap the NHS (which is already essentially bankrupt) and social benefits/services.

With the resulting tax cuts, we can take responsibility for ourselves and our families - and those left better off can consult their conscience and donate to charities to help those less well off.

EdInvestor

Did the Panorama programme mention Immediate needs annuities?

Anyone who has an elderly relative needing to go into full-time care who owns a home should look at these annuities: they pay the cost of the care of the person for life, and will normally leave quite a bit over from the value of the property.

There is a tax perk - if the income from the annuity is paid direct to the care home, it is not taxed.

Quite a lot of elderly homeowners might have a cash fund which would pay much of the cost of one of these (depending on their age and state of health), without necessarily needing to sell the house.

Dora_the_Explorer_5

Crossy wrote:

My father-in-law who is 82 was hospitalised recently, he was told by the nursing sister that he would not be allowed home on his own, and would have to sell his house to pay for his care. He told her he lived in council accommodation and was promptly sent home!.

ps we have asked him to live with us, but he wants independance.

I'm truly sorry this happened. The nursing sister was, as you've described it, incorrect, unprofessional, cruel and abusive. The hospital let your FIL down.

Hospitals must make a discharge plan for older people developed by, if necessary, the hospital/social work/occupational therapy/family/the patient. Often the plan will be quite short as the patient will have any extra help needed at the point of discharge provided by family/friends - eg shopping for someone who's had a hip replacement. Sometimes the needs are more complex and sometimes the extra help someone needs on discharge is temporary, sometimes longterm. And of course, whatever the patient's age, they can discharge themselves if it is believed they have capacity to make the decision.