Rewire costs

ch3f

Hi

This is related to my earlier post (copied below).

Thanks to those who provided feedback

I am now trying to get a handle on this and would appreciate further feedback. It is complicated situation with the electrician.

Since I asked for a detailed breakdown rather than the one he gave below he has told me this has added extra money

The first fix has been completed and approx £1300 worth of cable and back boxes etc have been used - no sockets no lights and no circuit board fitted yet.

I am told that this took 22 apprentice days the electrician told me he normally charges them out at £170, but he was only charging us £100 per day.

My questions are
is this a reasonable length of time to do the work? (remember no chasing or plastering needed)
is the day rate a reasonable?

Any other comments appreciated.

Thanks






OLD POST
rewire costs

I am having a complete rewire of a large 3 bed dormer bungalow the electrican has to do no chasing or replastering or lifting floorboards etc (The house has been gutted and the builder is making it as easy as possible for him) (The electrician will be using 2 apprentices to do most of the work)
I have been quoted the following can you advise how reasonable this is, I was advised that this is a much reduced rate.

The work is not in London and travel time is minimal.

Total cost is £7637 (excluding VAT) and it includes all below plus wiring and testing and certifying

total with VAT is £8782.55

Thank you


brushed chrome deta
29 x double socket outlet £1,015 (£35 each)
6 x switched fused spur outlets £240 (£40 each)
2 x tv outlet £50
3 x telephone outlet £75
1x 45A cooker switch (1 gang plate -no socket outlet) £80
61 x 240 v adjustable spotlight and 35w lamp £1,525 (£25 each)
11 x 240 LED/L/E Adjustable spotlight & lamp £352 (£32 each)
3 x IP65 LV adjustable spotlight & transformer & lamp £90

White deta
23 x double socket outlet £690 (£30 each)
5 x single socket outlet £150
5 x switched fuse spur outlets £175
1 x un switched fuse spur outlets £35
3x tv outlet £75
3 x telephone outlet £75
3 x 100mm extractor fan (timed) £270
1 x 100mm extractor fan (standard) £90
3 x shaver socket outlet £180
2 x pendant set & lamp £60
6 x 16w 2d fitting£240
2 x smoke detector£100
2 x heat detector£100
4 x IP65 double socket outlets £240
1 x 8 way tv booster £50
Alarm
5 x Pir detectors £175
2 x keypads £80
2 x door contacts £60
2 x bell boxes £140
1 x panel & batteries £100
External lights
9 x soffit lights £225
2 x wall lights £50
1 x zone keypad £100
5 x pir detectors £300
Consumer unit
9 x 6 Amp £450

Total £7,637

will-he-payitoff

Look at the prices here http://www.screwfix.com/prods/25759?cm_sp=AOVDriver-_-ElectricalSupplies-_-TwinEarth100m&ts=21630 You must have an huge house to use that much.
22 days to do a 1st fix in an empty house, if it took me above 4 days I would pack in I would say you are being robbed. How do you know how long it took were you there at all. Plus his cost for an apprentice are aprox £50 per day and should really be supervised.

ch3f

Hi

Thanks to all resposes to the first and this second post.

Obviously there is a lot I need to research here.

To start I'd like to drill down into his daily apprentice costs. ((ie charges out at £170 a day and we have for £100 per day)

Is there a recognised "published/Industry standard" daily rate to meet all costs associated with apprentice electricians and what are those costs eg wages, NI, liability insurance and are there any benefits eg grants, tax breaks.

Obviously any other comments around the post welcome

Look forward to your comments.

Thanks

baldelectrician

The hypothetical chargable rates are
Apprentice
1st stage £9.19
2nd stage £13.03
3rd stage £18.52
Electrician (approoved) £28.15

Remeber these rates allow for 22+8 days holiday. They do not include VAT if an company charges VAT

Apprentices are not meant to be left unsuprvised (working on site) for any period of time

will-he-payitoff

If its a JIB firm this is what he should be paying his lads http://www.jib.org.uk/tschemes080910.htm.and he will most likley getting some funding from these http://www.jtltraining.com/youngpeople/electrical.php
If not he could be paying less than this, most electricians charge out at less than £170 per day.

Rosebery_2

ch3f wrote: »

To start I'd like to drill down into his daily apprentice costs. ((ie charges out at £170 a day and we have for £100 per day)

Is there a recognised "published/Industry standard" daily rate to meet all costs associated with apprentice electricians and what are those costs eg wages, NI, liability insurance and are there any benefits eg grants, tax breaks.

This is quite, quite wrong trying to analyse his costs this way. Would you do this in Sainsbury's or at your local garage when you get the bill for the car?

22 days for first fix in an empty house IS too long however. All you have to know is that and all you need to do is tell him so.

It matters not whether he is using apprentices or not - thats his choice but he shouldn't allow his training commitments to dictate YOUR timescales.

If you've agreed the price for the job at £ 7.3k or whatever thats the price - finish. A more detailed breakdown should not add extra money - thats BS. If you agreed
a contract for a fixed price you BOTH have a contract for a fixed price.

So you nit picking and him trying to add extra costs without justification is pointless.
The seeds of distrust between you two are being sown here on this very forum. It will all end in tears at this rate.

ch3f

I can see what you are saying and normally I would agree however the situation is complicated.

At the start we set a budget of £4,400 (we had contingency of another £600 on the understanding it would be done at cost.

The electrician is now saying he did not know this, I then don't understand why he didn't say here is the budget I'm working to.

This is why I was surprised when we got an initial bill for over £7 k as you can imagine I was even more surprised when I asked for a transparent breakdown I got this higher figure.

You are correct it is a matter of trust, but because of complications I am unable to walk away from this just by paying my budget without justifying it on my side.

So thank you all for feedback please keep it coming also thanks for this post re trust.

I know it doesn't fully explain the situation but I do need the information so I can justify my position.

Thanks

baldelectrician

I had a similar situation with a builder recently

I had indicated a standard 4 bedroom rewire would be around the £2400-£2900 mark

The customer went mega with sockets. Small bedroom had 5 sockets, tv switch, tv point and 5 spots.

Over 40 items are £35 per item for standard white (not chrome acessories)

A standard 4 bedroom house would be £2400-£2900

This house was 161 items (4 times the amount of a standard house), but they expected a similar price

to sum up 161 items would now be £4235+£2400=£6635 max.
There is quite a scope for reduction if there are less fancy items (fire rated spots for example)

Rosebery_2

Oh dear. Are you saying that you did NOT have an agreed price for the job in writing before the work started? Do you have ANY form of contract with him?

TBH I'd have guessed at iro £4.5 - £5.5k for this job and if that was the budget you discussed with him from the outset thats the starting point whether he agrees that he knew that or not.

You and he have to reach an accommodation on a price now OR you have to stop at first fix, pay him off and get someone else in to complete the job.

To reach an accommodation you need to stop worrying about a detailed breakdown and concentrate on the price you are prepared to pay. You also need to be able to tell him with confidence that 22 man-days for first fix is an unacceptably long time particularly if it is funding his training budget and he should know that you know £ 1,300 worth of cable and back boxes is enough to rewire a medium sized hotel let alone a 3 bed bungalow. Go into no more deatil than that.

Ask him to give a written quotation as a completed price for the job pricing his manpower resource and materials realistically and to a sensible schedule. He has a blank canvas to work with and there should be no "extras" if the house is as you say it is.

If his project price and your budget are close enough to be able to agree with a minor amount of haggling (give and take on both sides) then you can move to agreeing your contract with him. For example you can reduce the scope.

If you can't agree then require his invoice for work already done and say you are prepared to pay a reasonable lump sum price for it and as he already knows that you are on the ball on apprentice days and cable costs he'll probably be sensible about it.

Oh and if this is the first time that VAT has reared its ugly head bear in mind that to charge VAT he has to be VAT registered and present you with a proper invoicve with his VAT regsitartion on it. If he didn't mention VAT in the initial discussions or in the prices he has given you previously then by convention it is deemed to be included.

HTH

Cheers

baldelectrician

You could go to serewfix website and price up a consumer unit (MK as it is dearest and best) and a few drums of pryimmian cable

I reckon the first fix cost will be closer to the £400 mark (£500 inc consumer unit)

dwarvenassassin

£3500 for 3bed dormer. As stated above Apprentices are NOT permitted to work unsupervised.

I hope you employed a scheme (NAPIT, NICEIC etc.) regsitered spark!! If you did, go straight to his schemes complaints department, if you didn't you deserve a slap and all the hassle you get.

The 'cheapest' quote usually isn't -oh, and quotes are binding, did you know that?