Cert ED + PGCE

poet123

A friends son wants to teach,but is unsure whether to go for an Secondary PGCE or a Cert Ed/FE PGCE (in view of the introduction of the new 14-19 diplomas).

He has asked me if there would be any bar to him doing both of these, one after the other,so that he can teach across all age groups. I don't know the answer,I would assume it would be possible,but as both attract bursaries would this be the sticking point?

I will be making further enquiries for him.but wondered if anyone knew the answer:D

Oldernotwiser

The Cert Ed/FE will not give him QTS (Qualified Teacher Status) allowing him to teach in schools - I know because I have one. However, many people teaching in FE have a secondary PGCE so if he does one of these he can teach in both sectors.

poet123

Yes,he realises that a Cert Ed would not give him QTS,which is why he wants to do both. To give himself the chance to choose his age group,and be eligible to teach 14-19 which spans both age groups. Especially in view of the imminent introduction of the 14-19 diplomas. He wants to do the FE PGCE part time,whilst still working,rather than a Secondary PGCE which inthis area is only available as a full time course.

I suspect that in a few years there will be no differentiation between the two, as compulsory education will be up to age 18.

Oldernotwiser

poet123 wrote: »

Yes,he realises that a Cert Ed would not give him QTS,which is why he wants to do both. To give himself the chance to choose his age group,and be eligible to teach 14-19 which spans both age groups. Especially in view of the imminent introduction of the 14-19 diplomas. He wants to do the FE PGCE part time,whilst still working,rather than a Secondary PGCE which inthis area is only available as a full time course.

I suspect that in a few years there will be no differentiation between the two, as compulsory education will be up to age 18.

Hi Poet, sorry, didn't realise it was you who's posted the question, or I'd've phrased it differently!

Afraid I don't agree with your second point, given that the new setup won't necessarily include education per se. Is your experience not the same as mine; that many people teaching traditional academic subjects in FE are secondary trained?

Has he looked at the GTP or the OU Secondary PGCE if he wants to train whilst working?

Magnolia

Have a look round this site for information and guidance. I have a phone number at my desk but I am not at work at the moment - I will post it when I can.

http://www.tda.gov.uk/Recruit.aspx

poet123

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

Hi Poet, sorry, didn't realise it was you who's posted the question, or I'd've phrased it differently!

Afraid I don't agree with your second point, given that the new setup won't necessarily include education per se. Is your experience not the same as mine; that many people teaching traditional academic subjects in FE are secondary trained?

Has he looked at the GTP or the OU Secondary PGCE if he wants to train whilst working?

Had another chat with him now,and it seems that he has left his Secondary PGCE application too late(or more accurately, his first choice provider moved the goalposts because there hasbeen an upsurge in applications)meaning that his subsequent choices had also filled their spaces from the people who had them as first choice. He had also applied for the GTP but his subject is oversubscribed,and he didnt make the shortlist.

So,it seems he now has a choice of doing the FE PGCE either full or part time, for one or two years respectively,Cert ED,(same routes)or continuing to do TA agency work in a Secondary school, and then re applying for 2010. Apparently lots of his friends are in the same boat.

His thinking is that doing the FE PGCE would be a "bird in the hand" so to speak, in case the situation with the Secondary PGCE worsens. However,he is concerned that to do them both would mean he is only eligible for one bursary.

ONW, I work in a split site college and the tradional academic subjects are taught elsehwere,so most, if not all ,of my colleagues have either a Cert Ed,or an FE PGCE. You may be right about the core subjects though. Although some of the Diplomas will be more vocational,it has been mooted that some of the Secondary teachers come into college with their school pupils and teach them the Diploma.......as you can imagine the unions are not all happy. So my line of thinking is that to appease all sides,the lines between the two qualifications will blur in the coming years. However,obviously we have to advise on the situation as it currently stands.

Just noticed your point about the OU.....I didnt realise they did it,I will check that out,thanks

I want to make sure I give him good advice....any thoughts?:D

Oldernotwiser

I would think it unlikely that he'd get a bursary for more than one PGCE, particularly in the light of the recent changes to funding for people doing a second course at the same level. I agree that nobody knows how it's going to work out but personally I think it'd be really risky to leave yourself with only the FE PGCE as a qualification, particularly as FE is so much the "Cinderalla Service" in education!.

My husband and I were both FE Lecturers, although I taught mainly vocational subjects with a Cert ED (FE/HE). He taught English/Drama with a school based teaching qualification as did almost all the Humanities/Science teachers in his department.

If he was one of my Guidance clients, I think I'd recommend he spends the year working in schools and making the best possible application for the GTP next year and also an early application for the Secondary PGCE. This would seem to me to give him the widest choices at the start of his career.

By the way, what is his degree/teaching subject?

poet123

English with Creative Writing, (which incidentally is not offered as a PGCE subject by the OU). So your experience is more relevant than mine. I think he just feels that he will be 12 months older, and still no further forward toward his goal if he just works for the year.

The issue with an FE PGCE for English is that it narrows down his job prospects I suspect,as obviously there are far more openings in schools for such a core subject. So I think your advice is probably sound.

However,I agree that his school experience will enhance his applications.

The GTP seems like the Holy Grail,but the places are like gold dust,and I know for a fact that one girl gained a place purely on her mothers contacts last year,because her mother told me herself!

I think he will also have to factor in 2 lots of fees as well.

I think I may advise him to look at other short courses,not those which result in a teaching qualification,but maybe Supporting learning,Inclusive learning or Tefol,etc,which he could do alongside his school work,and then he will have some additional certs to make him stand out from the other PGCE candidates in 2010. It would also show he was serious about teaching imo,and had used the year productively.

Do you think this would be a good idea?

Oldernotwiser

I think that anything he can do to enhance his application will be to the good and at least give him some faint hope of getting on the GTP. I know you haven't mentioned primary but you do know how much they encourage applications from men, don't you? An ex colleague of mine was accepted for a primary place with a degree in War Studies!

I really wouldn't encourage anyone to teach English at an FE college. You get stuck with masses of really basic GCSE English Language teaching with people who just have to have this qualification for a future career rather than because it interests them. The A level teaching is like gold dust and held very tightly by the established staff and many colleges have stopped doing it completely.

Until I left and went back into careers guidance, I had no idea how much this sector had fallen behind the secondary in terms of pay. I appreciated how conditions had worsened (partly why I got out!) but was amazed to hear what secondary teachers with some resonsibility were paid compared with my husband and I who were at the top of the Lecturer 1 scale, with 45 years' experience between us!

A lot of this is my personal experience only, of course.

poet123

I think he has considered primary,but his real passion is the creative writing side,and the depth of that at primary level is not great
Thanks for that insight into the pysche of A level Lecturers! so it seems that if in FE he could get landed with the more basic literacy side, then he is much better doing the secondary PGCE,with at least a chance of teaching the writing side.

I have been looking at the level 3 NVQ in Supporting Learning and Teaching,which if it achieves no other aim will mean he is paid more by the agency for his school job. It may also be of benefit to his applications,and could be coupled with a TEFOL qualification inside 12 months, whilst he waits to re apply.

Your input has been really helpful,thanks a lot. I will be ringing him later and will give him the advice.