Why are the shared care rules so biased?

Giraffeseeker

Hi all,

I'm totally frustrated with the CSA rules being so biased towards the PWC in shared care situations.

We have my husbands 3 children "officially" 3 nights per week, so 19 nights per year under the "lowest" CSA payment band of 175 nights per year. My husband therefore pays £342 per month to his ex-wife for the 4 nights a week she has them. Simply on this basis it seems unfair that she does not have to pay him for the 3 nights a week that he has them, especially when she earns a fair bit more than him, and also gets the CHB (she used to get WTC but I don't know if she still does).

On top of this, she's got a new job which is longer hours and she doesn't get the school holidays off. So myself and OH (we both work in schools) have to collect the children from school on "her" nights and look after them until she arrives to collect them (any time between 6 and 8).

Therefore we feed them every night, do the majority of the washing and drive them to all their after school activities. I also have my two children 3 or 4 nights a week. As you can imagine, our food and petrol bills are huge. As far as I can see, she only has to feed her children on alternate weekends and a couple of packed lunches per week. My two children are at a different school and on 2 nights per week they have to go to an after school club (which I have to pay for!) so I can pick my step-children up first as my OH cannot get out of work in time (I can't be in 2 places at once and the schools are 20 mins drive apart) - she will not consider childcare for her children.

With her job change she expects us to have the children for all of the school holidays, with her picking them up for her 4 overnight stays per week and dropping them off the next morning. It is expensive to feed and entertain children in the school holidays! Worse still, in the recent half term she took 3 days holiday from work to go away with her boyfriend and then went back to work for the other 2 days, so didn't spend one day with them.

I'm just so frustrated that we pay such a large amount and still have such alot of other expenditure when she is on such a good income herself. As I said, she earns more than my OH, who is unable to go for promotion himself due to child care issues - as I said, the children's mother will not even consider after school care, ie a childminder or club, as she says children should be cared for by one of their parents (or maybe it's the cost implications?).

I'm not even sure what she does with the money we give her. She says she needs it for child expenses, but as we ferry them to their activities (football, cubs, brownies, etc) we actually pay the subs for these, with the exception of swimming lessons which she pays by direct debit. She says she buys clothes, but now one of the boys is 14 she has asked us to pay £30 per month into his account as a clothes/mobile phone allowance so he can buy his own (so far we have refused as we feel we are already paying for this, but she is putting pressure on through her son for us to do this). We do buy alot of clothes anyway for the children because the clothes we always end up with at our house are always the ones they are growing out of, are worn out/stained, etc. We certainly buy things like pj's, underwear, coats (they always arrive without) etc. We also have to pay half towards any school trips that cost over £20 - most recently she has asked for several hundred pounds towards a school residential for the eldest. It seemed alot so I called the school and found out she was asking us for 80% of the cost!

This week my step children are very excited about their summer holiday with their mother and her boyfriend - they are going to a villa in Spain for 2 weeks. They are also going to Butlins at Easter. Their mother has just come back from 4 days in France with her boyfriend and is also spending a week in May with him in Crete. We will probably be able to take them all for a week in on a UK caravan park. It just seems we are funding her lifestyle - she has a new car and has just fitted a new kitchen. She doesn't live with her boyfriend so it is just her income paying for all this.

Now, the claim does not go through the CSA - it is calculated on the CSA calculator on their website. My husband does not want it to become an official CSA claim. We have asked her for a reduction in what we pay due since her job change and the additional time we are having them, feeding them, but she won't have it, saying it is based on where they sleep. It is a real hassle for the children as the youngest are often bathed and in their PJ's before she picks them up, and then they have to get in the car and drive back to Mummy's house to be put into bed.

If it did become a CSA claim would any of this be taken into account? We can't just refuse to collect them on "her" nights - when we have told her on the odd occasion that we are unable to collect she simply says we need to sort it out or they will be left standing in the playground. Holidays she would drop them off whether we agreed or not and you can't really discuss (argue) about it in front of them.

Sorry for the long post. Really just needed to rant! I must stress that we love having them and would happily have them full time. It's just the money thing that bugs me sooo much as we're missing out on being able to do nice things with them due to cost while she is having and expensive lifestyle. SO unfair! :mad:

marksoton

To be blunt, you are being taken for mugs ! What a selfish woman she is. I am afraid you can expect little help from the CSA, generally they will just kick into Female PWC mode and would believe virtually everything she says. If you are prepared for a long slog you might get somewhere. The main problem ( even if you had the children more often than her ) would be wrestling the child benefit book off her. That is the golden ticket.

Giraffeseeker

Not a hope of getting the CB book! Yep, I feel we are being mugs, but it's not the childrens fault. She does threaten OH with complete removal of them if he doesn't toe the line, and although I keep telling him this would never happen (because she needs him to have them, and because I am sure the courts - if it went that far - would say that the "status quo", 3 nights a week which has been in place for years, should remain). But he doesn't want to rock the boat or have her involve the children in any unpleasantness, which she would do. I can't see why we should pay anything at all, except maybe half of big expenses like school holidays. I have 50/50 care with my ex-husband and we pay half for childcare, school dinners & school uniform. I pay for activities out of the Child Benefit (ie swimming lessons) and we split any big one-off costs. I wouldn't feel right claiming all that money off him!

laurenjs88

I'd call her on it, stop paying the CS see what she does. Like you said, she needs you to have the kids that often, Dont let her take you for a ride. Write to her & keep a copy explaining why your not happy with the situation and what you'd like to change. Ring CSA and get some advice you dont have to start a claim with them.

Document when the children are staying with you and how long for etc... so if she does goto CSA you've got "proof" of the situation & how it goes about, there doesnt need to be any unpleasentness in front of the children on your part, if she kicks up a stink it sounds like at least one of the children is old enough to realise whats going on.

LizzieS_2

Why don't you book a short holiday for just the 2 of you while your children are with their dad?

If the csa become involved the amount will be the same from what you've said. The main issue seems to be over you covering childcare on her nights - you simply have to be firm here and refuse instead of re-arranging your own children to accomodate.

Soubrette

marksoton wrote: »

To be blunt, you are being taken for mugs ! What a selfish woman she is. I am afraid you can expect little help from the CSA, generally they will just kick into Female PWC mode and would believe virtually everything she says. If you are prepared for a long slog you might get somewhere. The main problem ( even if you had the children more often than her ) would be wrestling the child benefit book off her. That is the golden ticket.

Not in my case My ex is a total liar but apparently has the right to be believed unlike apparently myself who actually has to provide direct proof of my allegations (indirect proof of what he paid himself previously, his unchanged lifestyle and what jobs in his area are paid are not enough and funnily he won't share his bank details with me :rolleyes: ). He is the NRP.

To the op, yes shared care is unfair but you have to make a decision as to whether or not you continue in this way. Basically you have a choice of seeing the children so often and paying what you do - ie the status quo.

Or you get firm with the PWC and explain that the children see you for 3 days and 3 nights a week and that is it - she has to arrange (or pay) for alternative childcare on 'her' nights.

Or you negotiate with her that you become the PWC and have them more often.

If it's only a rant that you're after then why not write to your MP and explain the situation you are in, asking them if days rather than nights can be taken into account. They probably won't do anything but the more people that complain then the more chance of the CSA/CMEC rules being changed.

Sou

Soubrette

tintingirl wrote: »

Hi all,

when we have told her on the odd occasion that we are unable to collect she simply says we need to sort it out or they will be left standing in the playground. Holidays she would drop them off whether we agreed or not and you can't really discuss (argue) about it in front of them.

:mad:

Do you have any of the above in writing? To be honest if she is seeing the children so little and you have them so much then I would be tempted to go to a solicitor and see about becoming the PWC but of course you will need proof.

Sou

DeeDee74

totally agree you are being taken advantage of.
seem's she likes having the money but also u having the kids most of the time.
anything over the agreed day's and i'd be asking for her to pay for the club's thay attened and money towords food.
u support them by paying csa and feed them half the week/take them out which is extra a little unfair i think.

Merry_Gentry

I know it's difficult, but as long as your partner doesn't want to 'rock the boat' she will continue to take advantage the way she is. You both need to stand firm on what is reasonable and stick with it. No mother would leave her children standing in the playground awaiting collection - if she insists on them being looked after by a parent, then she needs to be the parent. You have to stop letting her run your life because that is basically what she's doing.

There is no incentive for her to change her mind - why should she? Be strong, stand up for what you know is right, and be prepared to ride the waves til things settle down.

N71

tintingirl wrote: »

Hi all,

I'm totally frustrated with the CSA rules being so biased towards the PWC in shared care situations.

We have my husbands 3 children "officially" 3 nights per week, so 19 nights per year under the "lowest" CSA payment band of 175 nights per year.
CSA give a reduction for shared care for anything over 52 nights.
Your 3 nights per week totals 156 nights per year, and thats before you add on all of the holidays PWC is going on, leaving children with you for additional nights. So, even on the 3 nights per week, he should only be paying 4/7ths of the assessment.

My husband therefore pays £342 per month to his ex-wife for the 4 nights a week she has them. Simply on this basis it seems unfair that she does not have to pay him for the 3 nights a week that he has them, especially when she earns a fair bit more than him, and also gets the CHB (she used to get WTC but I don't know if she still does).

On top of this, she's got a new job which is longer hours and she doesn't get the school holidays off. So myself and OH (we both work in schools) have to collect the children from school on "her" nights and look after them until she arrives to collect them (any time between 6 and 8).

Therefore we feed them every night, do the majority of the washing and drive them to all their after school activities. I also have my two children 3 or 4 nights a week. As you can imagine, our food and petrol bills are huge. As far as I can see, she only has to feed her children on alternate weekends and a couple of packed lunches per week. My two children are at a different school and on 2 nights per week they have to go to an after school club (which I have to pay for!) so I can pick my step-children up first as my OH cannot get out of work in time (I can't be in 2 places at once and the schools are 20 mins drive apart) - she will not consider childcare for her children.

With her job change she expects us to have the children for all of the school holidays, with her picking them up for her 4 overnight stays per week and dropping them off the next morning. It is expensive to feed and entertain children in the school holidays! Worse still, in the recent half term she took 3 days holiday from work to go away with her boyfriend and then went back to work for the other 2 days, so didn't spend one day with them.

As others have said, could you and your partner consider becoming the PWC to the children? It seems you have them so much - you may aswell!

I'm just so frustrated that we pay such a large amount and still have such alot of other expenditure when she is on such a good income herself. As I said, she earns more than my OH, who is unable to go for promotion himself due to child care issues - as I said, the children's mother will not even consider after school care, ie a childminder or club, as she says children should be cared for by one of their parents (or maybe it's the cost implications?).

I'm not even sure what she does with the money we give her. She says she needs it for child expenses, but as we ferry them to their activities (football, cubs, brownies, etc) we actually pay the subs for these, with the exception of swimming lessons which she pays by direct debit. She says she buys clothes, but now one of the boys is 14 she has asked us to pay £30 per month into his account as a clothes/mobile phone allowance so he can buy his own (so far we have refused as we feel we are already paying for this, but she is putting pressure on through her son for us to do this). We do buy alot of clothes anyway for the children because the clothes we always end up with at our house are always the ones they are growing out of, are worn out/stained, etc. We certainly buy things like pj's, underwear, coats (they always arrive without) etc. We also have to pay half towards any school trips that cost over £20 - most recently she has asked for several hundred pounds towards a school residential for the eldest. It seemed alot so I called the school and found out she was asking us for 80% of the cost!

This week my step children are very excited about their summer holiday with their mother and her boyfriend - they are going to a villa in Spain for 2 weeks. They are also going to Butlins at Easter. Their mother has just come back from 4 days in France with her boyfriend and is also spending a week in May with him in Crete. We will probably be able to take them all for a week in on a UK caravan park. It just seems we are funding her lifestyle - she has a new car and has just fitted a new kitchen. She doesn't live with her boyfriend so it is just her income paying for all this.

Now, the claim does not go through the CSA - it is calculated on the CSA calculator on their website. Did you calculate it yourselves - as from the first paragraph it seems your shared care isn't included.
https://secureonline.dwp.gov.uk/csa/v2/en/calculate-maintenance.asp
If its not possible for you and your husband to become the PWC - check the online calculator again, including the 3/7 shared care reduction - tell the PWC the results and if she doesn't like it, your husband is entitled to go through the CSA and apply to pay that way. (Not many people realise the NRP can also apply to pay - not just the PWC applying to claim).

My husband does not want it to become an official CSA claim. We have asked her for a reduction in what we pay due since her job change and the additional time we are having them, feeding them, but she won't have it, saying it is based on where they sleep. It is a real hassle for the children as the youngest are often bathed and in their PJ's before she picks them up, and then they have to get in the car and drive back to Mummy's house to be put into bed.

If it did become a CSA claim would any of this be taken into account? We can't just refuse to collect them on "her" nights - when we have told her on the odd occasion that we are unable to collect she simply says we need to sort it out or they will be left standing in the playground. Holidays she would drop them off whether we agreed or not and you can't really discuss (argue) about it in front of them.

Sorry for the long post. Really just needed to rant! I must stress that we love having them and would happily have them full time. It's just the money thing that bugs me sooo much as we're missing out on being able to do nice things with them due to cost while she is having and expensive lifestyle. SO unfair! :mad:

And, finally, your husband needs to put his foot down! She really seems to be taking the pi$$ - giving PWC's a bad name :mad: .

I really don't think you should be running around collecting the children on her nights - its her nights so they're her responsibility.

kelloggs36

As I was reading the OP I immediately wondered where the minimum shared care of 175 nights came from????? Under CS1 it used to be 104 nights per year, and under CS2 (which this would be if a claim were put in) would be 52 nights per year. Therefore as N71 says, you are overpaying her - you need to pay 4/7 of the full assessment but first you need to work out hubby's net income, and deduct 20% for your children and then work out the 25% that is left and THEN work out 1/7 multiply that by 4 and that is your assessment.

So for example, if hubby's net income per month was £2000 his assessment based on the 3 nights per week only would be £52 per week or £227 per month.