Committal to prison - can I ask the magistrate to strike out the debt?

Light_Speed_Cruiser

Hi, everyone, new here. I have 2 girls (14 and 17) with ex who applied for CSA 1 in 2002. I lost my tax credits and earnings were reduced to near nothing after the CSA took its cut, I was living in squalor. The assessment was wrong anyway and the CSA were evasive in putting it right and concealed the existence of a right to appeal. I lost my house in the divorce and ex obstructed all my contact efforts. Applying for a contact order was a waste of time, it's unenforceable.

Unable to reach sensible outcome with the CSA I decided to semi-retire to Manila Philippines but the CSA classed this as depriving myself of income and continued the assessment as though I still worked in the UK.

I've never been a high earner, I am only a karaoke entertainer and keyboardist serving the hotel and resorts market working via an agency.

The CSA ignored my letters (about 2 or 3) from Manila and started writing to me at a several friends addresses the CSA said they had traced me to be living at. The debt was discovered when the CSA wrote to my fathers address who died in 1989. I had given the property to my son from my first marriage to rent out.

I got the paperwork from the CSA this week, they want just over £37,000 and they have several liability orders at various dates and all with the wrong address on them. The paperwork says the CSA have been sending bailiffs looking for me - and funnily enough, a bailiff document says a bailiff spoke to me in person at an address in Berkshire England!!! (is it normal for the CSA and its agents to tell lies?).

The CSA says I can't appeal or go to tribunal because I am out of time. The next step is committal to prison but I don't have anything to offer avoid arrest and imprisonment other than returning to the Philipines where the law says I have no liability.

I contend I did not deprive myself of income because I have a right to choose where I live and work.

a) Does a magistrate have a power to nullify an assessment?

b) Do I have ANY recourse with the CSA or am I dealing with a lost cause?

Voyager2002

Something has gone badly wrong: the CSA do not pursue NRPs who are out of the UK, and so the amount you owe should not have increased at all once you left for Manila. Furthermore, if they failed to inform you of your right of appeal then you should not be out of time to dispute an assessment that you believe was wrong.

At this stage I suggest that you seek help from an MP. Make the case as easy as possible for her/him (so don't muddy the waters by talking about contact problems, which are a separate issue).

Light_Speed_Cruiser

Thanks for your v.prompt reply.

The CSA only stop charging if they think the NRP has permanently left the UK. In my case I went there after meeting somebody and invited to stay for a few years and see how things pan out. We would prefer to live in the UK but if I can't afford it or the CSA intends chasing me to the grave then its Philippines.

Which MP do I go to? I have no fixed address in the UK and one MP has already said he will only deal with matters brought by a constituent.

I'm asking here whether it would be better to face a magistrate in a committal hearing and tell them my side of the case and take my chances. I don't have much to lose now but I'm trying to find out if a magistrate has a power to scrub an assessment.

kelloggs36

But if you did deprive yourself of income then the assessment will indeed stand. You had the right of appeal against this decision - if you didn't appeal in time then yes, it is out of time and your assessment will still be valid and remains payable. Whether it is enforceable whilst you are out of the country is another matter. Likliehood is that you will fail to attend a hearing for which a warrant for your arrest will be issued. When you return to the UK, it will be executable. YOu have nothing to lose by asking the magistrate to set aside the decision, but if you have not responded to the CSA letters after telling them you had left the country, you may have a fight on your hands. What did you tell the CSA when you left? Do you have a copy of the letter?

Loopy_Girl

It tells you at the end of every assessment letter that you have the right to appeal if you think the decision is wrong and gives you a timeline (and a leaflet) on how to do it.

Can you explain how you think they concealed that you have the right to appeal?

Everyone has the right to complain - or appeal - if they think something is wrong and this isn't just applicable to the CSA.

blimey40

How exactly does he appeal? They are imposing Liability orders left, right and centre. Its a know fact the CSA calculate arrears wrongly, but you have little case of appealing as the magistrates simply sign if off?

coco._2

Light speed cruiser you have a PM

Light_Speed_Cruiser

I told the CSA I was moving to Manila and two of those letters are in the data protection bundle. The CSA decided I had not permanently left the country. They did a trace and they said I was living at several addresses in England and my nieces address in Scotland.

The CSA letters that advise of an appeal are also in the bundle but the addresses are wrong and I never received them. Post sent to my hostel (official) address was returned DLO because I vacated my room.

I would like to argue concealment because the CSA would always phone and I always read a script back to them asking them to put things right, they were persistently evasive and never answered the question. On one occasion the CSA slammed the phone down on me. The data file says a singer I partnered with is my girlfriend and I was paying her to divert income. My bookkeeper who prepared my accounts is also my girlfriend and her invoice was disregarded. The CSA listened too much to my ex, somebody forgot to blank out her name on a document.

Liability hearings are different, I dont think magistrates can challenge the assessment, but I have a feeling magistrates have much more powers when presiding a committal hearing. Its much quicker than years of legal wrangling with the CSA.

Im here to deterime the risk of facing a magistrate and whether magistrates are able and willing to dismiss an assessment. I need to know whether I can present exhibits from the CSA data bundle. I could be facing a court that has prejudged me guilty and prison sentence is automatic, if thats true then there is no point attempting it.

Cozworth806

Mags courts do not look at the MA's as they are only concerned with the debts incurred and looking at willful refusal to pay, which by moving to the Philippines could easily show that it was done to avoid paying.
Certainly go to court with proof of residence and earnings etc from the dates that the CSA are asking for the arrears as it is usual for most mags to give you every chance to make sure the case is correct before they take the decision to send you to prison. If you have proof that the CSA or bailiffs are lying then so much the better.

I would suggest that you write to the CSA again and state that you wish for them to revise the MA's on the basis that you were out of the country etc.
As and when they refuse you can then appeal that refusal. It is sort of slightly a technicality and may not work but it is the best option you have,
It is unclear if you could ask for the MA to be closed as you were not habitually resident in the UK, and as we don't have much to go on, such as how long you were out of the country and if you owned property here I won't venture a comment on that but again it is worth you getting the CSA to make a decision about if the case should have closed from the date you left.
I feel that the words "you lost your tax credits" has no bearing on the CSA, they do not touch them so it may have been due to Inland revenue issues such as earning more than declared.

Loopy_Girl

blimey40 wrote: »

How exactly does he appeal? They are imposing Liability orders left, right and centre. Its a know fact the CSA calculate arrears wrongly, but you have little case of appealing as the magistrates simply sign if off?

I was talking about when he said that the assessment was wrong and he was living in squalor...I am assuming that he was still in the UK and that he must have seen the letter with the assessment. As far as I can see, there were no arrears as yet and he still had the chance to put his case, and indeed appeal, forward.

If that assumption is wrong OP then please correct me.

Light_Speed_Cruiser

Appeal against a decision to refuse to give an appeal? I think this could go on infinety.

Why would the CSA conceal a right to an appeal? they have made it clear I am out of time. Is the CSA telling me porkies again?

I lost my tax credits because I no longer lived with my children. It was hard enough coping with the mortgage while paying my hostel tenancy. The CSA placed a further burden, but the straw that broke the camels back was the CSA overcharging me with these wild claims of diversion of income and girlfriends etc.

I havnt owned a British property since 2003, been in Manila and coming to Britain entertaining the holiday park circuit during the UK Summer break. I have an RV and dont really have an address. Credit cards, driving license and bank accounts need a fixed address and this is where the CSA presumes correspondence address = habitual living address.