Tifo vs Council (planning)

tifo

I don't know where to post this so here it is ...

I'm building an extension/conservatory at the back of my house (i know it may seem wrong, considering that we're in the middle of a credit crunch, but this deal with the builder was done 2 years ago and i got a very good price, so been waiting for him to be free). I'm also converting the garage into a room and it's an all inclusive price.

So, here i am, in Jan we've built everything up to the extension roof and conservatory windows. So foundation, bricks, insulation etc all done. Next door have now complained to the Council's planning department after voicing some concerns last week, stating they're not happy with the extension/conservatory as it will block their light from my side and they'd rather keep the knee high fence we had. This was after the foundation and brick walls were built.

We told them planning is not required and that i am building within guidelines. Also, they are aware that i applied for planning last year for this and a double side extension and the officer told me to do the work at the back and garage conversion first, within permitted development rules, then apply again for the side extension which he will be happy to accept and that way i get a better deal from them (otherwise he would use up my permitted development within the back extension/conservatory).

Planning officer came today stating 'someone' had complained but said to work out which 1 house had done so, which i know anyway. He said i am 6 metres out, with the rules being 4, but i said i am building with permitted rules of 70 cubic metres internal and no 'out' distance and my internal area is 61 cubic metres. So i am within guidelines from when i started the project though slightly out in today's rules.

So, here i am, looking at options as to what may happen. Some info below.

1. Prior to Oct 1 2008, i could build within 70 cubic metres internal space without planning (detached/semi) and no rules on how far back i can go. I saw my planning officer in Aug and he advised as i stated above.

2. After Oct 1 2008, the rules have relaxed slightly but have changed a bit. Now i can build only 4 metres back from my house (detached/semi) but no internal space, which can be 50% of the curtalage (empty land) of the house.

Some of my work started before 1 Oct 2008 and it is the whole 'project' which is being carried over to now. Due to the cold winter, the builder took about a month off in Dec.

The council's website info on permitted development is confusing and i have also rang the planning department at every stage to ask. All the time i've been told it's 70 cubic metres internal space and a conservatory needs to be 50% glass on the sides and 75% glass above, which mine is. So according to them until end Jan, i was within guidelines and no need to call them out.

The website stated during my building time (until today after the officer came and i told him the info on the site may be wrong then) that i can build up to 70 cubic metres and 50% of the empty land, so a mixture of the rules from before and after 1 Oct 2008 and i am within these.

At worst, i would need to bring back a wall at 6 metres to a 4 metres distance, which means the loss of the building costs, including materials and labout. About £3,000 i would say. About the same to rebuild. I could argue that the council provided incorrect info to me which resulted in this unexpected loss and they should compensate for the moving and building the wall again.

At best, i carry on as i am doing and they agree i am within guidelines.

This is what the council info said, note the 70 cubic metres but nothing about the distance of the wall from the back of the house (new rules state 4 metres).

Planning permission is required:

* If the conservatory exceeds 50 cubic metres on a terraced property, or the property is located within a conservation area, or 70 cubic metres in other cases e.g. semi-detached or detached properties. i am within 70 cubic metres ([pre 1 Oct 2008 rule).
* If the conservatory and previous extensions erected post 1947 combined, exceed these allowances. this is not applicable.
* If the conservatory is over 4 metres in height from the ground level on which it is erected. i am within this.
* If the conservatory is located between the wall of the property and the highway. this is not applicable.
* If the conservatory exceeds 50% of the curtilage. i am within this (post 1 Oct 2008 rule).
* No part of the structure, including foundations, guttering etc, projects into the adjoining properties boundary. i am within my own area.
* If the building is listed, listed building consent is required, and you are advised to discuss your proposal with the conservation and design officer.


Planning permission is not required if the conservatory does not exceed any of the above values, however you are strongly advised to check with the planning office. which i did at all stages, duff advice given.

tifo

they want me to apply for planning because the new rules state 4 metres but if i can prove i started the work prior to Oct 1, then it's fine (which i can).

then they accept that even if i did it after Oct 1 i was following the info on their website, and by telephone, which was incorrect.

i don't understand what they're saying, whenever i've done the work they accept i followed their guidelines, so how can they now say they were in the wrong but i have to suffer for it (by going for planning or rebuilding). I suggested maybe they should pay my costs for the extra work.

tifo

however, the neigbours have also complained about me breaking the garden boundary fence, which i had to do as i've built an extension and a nice new brick wall ... and replaced the rest with a wall as well.

the fence was at the end of it's natural wooden life anyway ....

i mention this because the planning officer stated it contravenes the 'boundaries and fence' legislation but said it's a civil matter and not for them.

tifo

what can i do if they insist that i move the conservatory back 2 metres, and as my garden slopes down on that side, i have put a huge amount of foundation and blocks in there to keep it strong.

i'm assuming worst case scenario, they say my evidence is not enough and they want me to rebuild to 4 metres, but accept that their spoken and published advice was wrong, for which they're sorry but tough.

my architect advises that in this case i may have a case against them for negligence and ask for demolishing and rebuilding costs as well as my costs to date, as i would need to create a different shape this time. I have built as i have and followed their guidance to date, which they now state was wrong.

I have a large manhole in the middle of my garden which prevents me building there, which is why i can only build to one side of it and i am told that i am not legally allowed to cover or obscure this.

tifo

some weeks ago the council officer said to carry on as i supplied evidence that i started before 1 Oct 2008 and therefore am within permitted development rights at that time. Since then, i've almost finished and have had the roof installed and conservatory windows ordered with a deposit paid. However, the neigbours are constantly chasing them and saying no, i started after 1 Oct 2008 and asking the council to take action. I haven't been told what evidence they've provided.

i don't know why the council won't simply tell them that nothing can be done and to shut up. I think they're complaining higher up the ladder and getting it looked at again. One family member is a lawyer.

this still leaves the fact that up to end Jan 2009 i was following the (wrong) published guidelines from the council website and by telephone advice, which they've accepted was incorrect but in a way are now saying tough.

i've been told to either apply for planning (and it could be refused) or provide signed affidavit's and complete some sort of legal document.

having spoken to planning aid and the LGO, i've been advised i have a strong case of negligence and lack of duty of care by the council as they have a responsibility to provide correct and valid information to members of the public at all times. If the law changed on 1 Oct 2008, there is no excuse for the council to not change published information from that date. They have enough resources. But i have to make a formal complaint and wait 12 weeks before i can pass it to the Ombudsman, who can only advice the council but not force it, though the advice is normally accepted.

i am looking to carry on as normal or, if i have to bear any costs of planning, rebuilding etc, hold the council responsible for negligence and failure in duty of care to the public by publishing the wrong information which was followed by me, hence incurring me the costs i've paid (nearly £18,000 to date for labour and materials etc).

the advice published is on my first post.

tifo

having spoken to planning aid again, they advice the council is asking me what they should, i.e. put in a planning or lawful development certificate application, same cost for both (the full planning fee as it's existing).

i don't see why i am guilty and have to prove myself innocent with the additional costs this will incur me. For the complainant, it's only a phone call and that's it.

i also don't see why i should jump through these hoops after i've followed the relevant guidelines and later, the council's own published guidelines and advice.

my solicitor is ready to take the case and sue them for negligence and lack of duty of care or however he words it. No cost for me as on a CFA. I've read councils cannot be sued for negligence. This would be for an amount equal to taking me back to the position i was before building, i.e. nice grassy garden and that would mean all my building costs and further landscaping costs to fix the garden. Then i can build again within current guidelines if i like.

what say many of the experienced members on this route?

Fire_Fox

What evidence have you got of contacting the planning department on several occasions? Name of officer, date and time, telephone notes, itemised phone bills?

helenjg

Fire_Fox wrote: »

What evidence have you got of contacting the planning department on several occasions? Name of officer, date and time, telephone notes, itemised phone bills?

Unfortunately everything is said without prejudice therefore there is no comeback.

planning_officer

I agree that the council seem less than efficient if they have not updated their website info on permitted development - and it's particularly poor if they've given you duff advice on the telephone too, after 1 Oct. However, at the end of the day it's your responsibility to stick to the guidelines (as it's national legislation) and I don't think you have a case against the council at all - irrespective of what your architect, solicitor or Planning Aid say. Yes, you could complain to the Council and you should expect an apology, but that's about you can expect unfortunately.

There's a few inaccuracies above too - the permitted development rules prior to 1 Oct refer to 70 cu m external volume, not internal. And the new rules specify a maximum depth from the original rear wall of the property of 3m for a semi-detached house and 4m for a detached house (not sure which yours is - presumably detached). Plus the 50% coverage of the curtilage was also a rule before 1 Oct, as well as after. And the references to %s of glass in a conservatory has nothing to do with planning - that's building regs.

It all seems to depend on when the work started - i.e. whether you started building your extension before or after 1 Oct. You say 'some of the work started' - was this the rear extension? If it's some other work, then it's not relevant - it only depends on when the rear extension was started. If this was before 1 Oct, and you can prove it, then provided you are within the 70 cu m external volume you should be ok, and applying for a Lawful Development Certificate would be useful for you too - it shows it is permitted development and some buyer's solicitors require them anyway if you move house in the future. However, if you started after 1 Oct you will either need to reduce the depth to 4m or apply for planning permission. If it's likely to be granted planning permission anyway, there's no need to start thinking about reducing the depth or demolishing it. Perhaps you could get an informal opinion from the Council as to whether it would be likely to be granted permission if you apply to retain it?

The Council are not going to compensate you though as, although it's obviously unfortunate that their info was not up to date, it's a householder's responsibility to build within the guidelines - and like the post above says, all advice is given on a without prejudice basis. Sorry!

tifo

the council say if i apply for planning it is unlikely to be passed due to the complaint from the neighbours. The conservatory has already been refused in August (loss of privacy for adjoining homes) and the officer told me to build it within 'permittted', which is what i have done.

i can provide affidavit's, materials invoices etc from before Oct 1 2008, though it was only digging at that time, prior to foundation. This should be enough for the 'conclusive proof' they require i would assume.

i have been told it is 70 cubic metres internal area and the enforcement officer agrees with this when he measured. I am 61 internal and 76 external. I have been told, as long as i can prove the dates, i should be OK.

i have a semi-detached house and the new rules state 4 metres for a 'detached' though some officers and most architects think this also applies to 'semi-detached' which is 'half' a detached.

anyway, as long as i can prove work started prior to Oct 1 the new rules don't apply, what worries me is whether my proof would be enough or the council may want to be difficult.

i'll have to find out more on their 'negligence' and 'duty of care' but i'm not going to start a case any time soon.

RLH33

If the enforcement officer has told you that it is only the internal measurement that counts then he is just plain wrong. It is the external cubic content of an extension that counts, not internal.

If the conservatory you have built is in excess of 70 cu m, as you say it is, then you are never going to get a certificate of lawful development regardless of when you dug the foundations. The Council will come to the view that under the previous regulations it needed planning permission and under the new regulations you need permission so hey presto - you need permission.

Even if the extension was below 70 cu m and you dug the foundations prior to 1 October 2008 but hadn't actually laid/poured them then I think, even then, you are on very shaky ground for a certificate of lawful development.

How big is the conservatory - 76 cu m - it must be massive - no wonder your neighbours are complaining. I am also at a loss as to how a conservatory uses up 15 cu m just in the construction i.e. the difference between internal and external - has it got a solid roof or a lot of solid walls?

Forget the negligence and duty of care - you will be wasting time and money, it is up to you to satisfy yourself that permission is not required, if necessary by getting written confirmation from the Council by way of letter or with the belt and braces approach of a certificate of lawful development. In order to complain you will have to do this direct to the Council itself first - I would imagine they will just say sorry but the onus is on you to be sure that it is pd (permitted development) and then change their web site. If you are not satisfied with the response only then can you go to the Ombudsman (they will not consider your complaint until you have gone through the Councils complaint procedure) he will at the very most give the Council a slap on the wrists for not getting their website updated but again say that the onus is on you to make sure the extension is pd.