Question over locking back door

EggMella

Hi again,

I've recently had some rear doors installed and the door has been installed with a interior only handle that doesn't have a key operated locking mechanism.

The company concerned are telling me that the action of pulling the handle down "locks" the door and that an actual key operated locking mechanism isn't required for BS standards. This seems a bit strange to me because the windows have locks.....

I've stated that I need a lock because without one I can't properly secure the property and I can't get proper insurance (this is based on the fact that unsurers always seem to specifiy that BS certified locks are required on front & back doors).

I'm not sure what to do next, they have quoted me £310 to provide a replacement door with an integrated locking handle (different size glass required). They're telling me that they install these all the time in apartments (ground floor) and other dwellings without problem.

Can anyone advise? Is this the right forum? Am I likely to be ok (note: I've asked for details of the BS standard).

cheers
Eggers

Bit of history - the builder associated with the work is an utter nightmare and the window company are telling me that when they asked him the question he said an interior only handle would be fine. The only specification of mine that was properly relayed back to them was that I needed something that would pass FENSA regulations.

dacouch

Which Insurer are you with?

Do you live in London?

Does your policy include a discount for you agreeing to have certain locks?

Have you spoken to your Insurers about this

greyteam1959

Sounds a bit odd to me.
If I remember correctly my insurance policy stipulates '5 lever mortice locks on all external doors' if I remember rightly.
I have a feeling that this is a common clause and has been for quite a few years.
It sounds to me like the guy has fitted a large window and is calling it a door !!!!!

olly300

OP you know you are being lead up the garden path so if you can't be firm over the phone you need to write a letter to the company concerned.

I've read the small print of many contents insurance policies with different insurers over the years and they state that all entrance and exit doors need BS standard locks.

I even read the small print of an insurance policy with MoreThan that stated all my windows needed key operating locks that basically needed to be operated at all times. (Not the exact wording.) I lived in a second floor flat at the time with no balcony, no drain pipes near the windows so unless someone was going to burglar me with a ladder through the windows I thought this was over the top. * The policy I eventually took out had a more commonsense view.

I suggest you dig your contents insurance policy out and read what it says.

Photocopy it, highlight the relevant section and write a letter to the company with the photocopy enclosed telling them the builder needs to change the door and you are not paying extra for it as it is well know that these doors are not acceptable. State in the letter that you give them a month to sort the issue out and if they don't, or if they refuse then you due to the other problems you have had with this builder, you may have to take futher action including legal action to replace the door.

Also send your letter to the company by recorded delivery. Companies have a habit of stating letters don't arrive if they are complaint letters.

*The people I know who have been burgled in flats have either been burgled by someone kicking the door down, or if they are on the top floor through the ceiling.

dacouch

mervyn11 wrote: »

Sounds a bit odd to me.
If I remember correctly my insurance policy stipulates '5 lever mortice locks on all external doors' if I remember rightly.
I have a feeling that this is a common clause and has been for quite a few years.
It sounds to me like the guy has fitted a large window and is calling it a door !!!!!

Its is only a common clause if you live in a very high risk area such as London, or you have a high level of contents cover. You can opt in for a discount for having these locks although I personally would recommend you do not as you will receive a discount of around £8 off your premium based on building and contents premium of £200. However if you take this discount you policy will then contain a warranty stating you have to use the door and window locks whenever you go out. If you have not used the locks and are broken into through that door or window then depending on your policy wording the Insurer will either not pay the claim or will pay the claim but with a much much larger excess.

I personally recommend to clients that are not in a high crime area or have a large amount of contents don't take the discount and then you do not have the warranty saying you have to use the door and window locks. If you do not have the door and window locks then the Insurers would expect you to take "Reasonable Precautions". This would mean they would normally still pay out if you left your window open when you went out for the day or weekend but may be able to argue that if you went away for a couple of weeks and left your window open that you were not taking "Reasonable Precautions"

Like I said before just ring your Insurers and check

EggMella

olly300 wrote: »

Also send your letter to the company by recorded delivery. Companies have a habit of stating letters don't arrive if they are complaint letters.

We're way beyond that with the builder to be honest (we're in a complete mess, he's disappeared off to another job with my money and a half completed job). I've sent 3 letters (2 recorded where he refused to accept) and 1 by first class post which I believe counts as accepted 14 days after posting anyway. I'll be moving to legal action against him although I hold little hope of getting any money back...

Regarding the windows he's measured 1 completely wrong so I've had to order a replacement (which I'm paying for). Before I pay for a replacement door as well I just want to make sure that it's something I actually need to do for insurance purposes. It sounds like it isn't which means the only risk associated with not having a lock would be one of not being able to prevent the kids from going out of it.........

EggMella

dacouch wrote: »

Which Insurer are you with?

Do you live in London?

Does your policy include a discount for you agreeing to have certain locks?

Have you spoken to your Insurers about this

This is another story completely - I'm not with an insurer at the moment and I'm finding it hard to get one (I have signs of subsidence & I'm within 250m of a flood zone). I do live in London though.

dacouch

If you live in london your policy will probably have a warranty about you have certain locks, Insurers have started to include the type of multi locking upvc door. (Can you open the back door from inside without the key?)

If you have signs of subsidence which insurance company have you been insured with as you really should be going back to them.

EggMella

The back door is actually two doors which open outwards, one with a handle and one that can be opened using a bolt on the inside of the door-frame when the first door is opened.

The door system is protected by a multipoint locking system (if I understand this term correctly) it's just that when the system is locked (by pulling the door handle down) the handle itself doesn't have a key to prevent it from being moved up (opened)... There is no handle on the outside so this may not be an issue because to activate the handle (lock) you'd need to break the window, which would essentially mean that you had access to the house anyway.

Regarding the subsidence I've just recently purchased the house, so I had a structural survey carried out prepurchase because of the wall/ceiling cracks. This stated that these weren't caused by subsidence but by settling, however, the insurance question I'm faced with is "are there signs of subsidence" so I guess the answer to this has to be "yes"?

Original insurers were Norwich Union but surely they aren't any more likely to accept me back given the potential problems with flood/subsidence? Also, I've recently found out that the area has had flood defences installed so not sure whether that would help.


** edit to say, regardless of the outcome here thanks for taking the time to answer these rather lengthy questions.....

dacouch

There are a few issues here.

The reason Insurers like Mortice Deadlocks is that they are more secure so reduce the chances of someone breaking in. In addition they cannot be opened from inside without the key so if someone breaks in through your window they can hopefully only steal a few things as they won't be able to open the door (If you have window locks and remove the keys they can probably not open a bigger window either). This is why Insurers like them and insist on them notably in most of london.

The door you have possibly falls foul of this, if you are looking at taking cover out most companies publish a leaflet on what locks they accept or explain it in their policy books

With regard to the possible subsidence, you should be looking to reinsure yourself with Norwich Union as some of the possible subsidence happened while they insured it. I would recommend you speak to a traditional local broker who can speak to Norwich Union on your behalf. It would be helpful if you ask the previous owner for her Norwich Union policy number.

Please read my answers in this thread which will hopefully explain why its important you get Norwich Union to cover you and then when / if you want to sell the house what you should do (Your problem is a good example of what happens if you do not follow my recommendations)

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1446059&highlight=after+subsidence

Norwich Union have very accurate flood date and jsut because your home is within 250 metres of a river does not mean they will not take you on (Especially as the previous owner was with them)..

I would not waste time ringing the NU direct call centre as the staff will struggle with it, speak to a local broker who should be happy to sort this out for you.

If you do have problems try emailing beccus who works for nu and works in the customer "experience" team. She is often on these forums and does her best to sort out any issue with Norwich Union.

P.S Norwich Union probably won't be the cheapest but it is a good policy and in your circumstances you should be looking to get your cover with them (Make sure you keep a note of the old policy number and refer to it when arranging cover with nu)

I hope this helps