Public versus private debt. Where Brown DID go wrong

Generali

Sir_Humphrey wrote: »

To Generali, I was not thinking of Foot's disastrous leadership of the Labour Party when I typed my last posting!

IIRC, Foot wasn't even the most extreme - Labour was home to some right nutters at the time. Hatton was a particular low IMO. Skargill(sp?) too. Skargill called for a General Strike when the Tories won the 1987 election to overthrow the Government!

At least we used to get some good political arguments.

All the best Tory nutters were about at the start of the C20th. During the debate around the National Insurance Act, a Tory asked why he should be made to pay Stamp for his servant girls.

Sir_Humphrey

Generali wrote: »

All the best Tory nutters were about at the start of the C20th. During the debate around the National Insurance Act, a Tory asked why he should be made to pay Stamp for his servant girls.

Tory nutters like John 'let's pave over the railways' Redwood aren't in the same league, true. Some of the Eurosceptics are pretty loopy IMO.

As for right wing loons, I remember seeing Freddie Forsyth at the Oxford Union once. The comments page below Simon Heffer's column in the Torygraph can get a bit scary too.

As for Scargill, I have little time for him myself. Old Labour journo Paul Routledge has done some good dirt-digging on him over the years. On the other hand, Lech Walesa was another trade unionist who overthrough a government, and he seemed quite popular with the Tories in the 1980s. (Don't take that last sentence too seriously BTW!)

Sir_Humphrey

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23640234-details/Mayor+Boris+Johnson+in+F-word+tirade/article.do

Talking of Tory loons.

'You're trying to make me look like a f***ing fool'

Boris Johnson

Comment is superfluous! LOL!

Generali

Sir_Humphrey wrote: »

Tory nutters like John 'let's pave over the railways' Redwood aren't in the same league, true. Some of the Eurosceptics are pretty loopy IMO.

As for right wing loons, I remember seeing Freddie Forsyth at the Oxford Union once. The comments page below Simon Heffer's column in the Torygraph can get a bit scary too.

As for Scargill, I have little time for him myself. Old Labour journo Paul Routledge has done some good dirt-digging on him over the years. On the other hand, Lech Walesa was another trade unionist who overthrough a government, and he seemed quite popular with the Tories in the 1980s. (Don't take that last sentence too seriously BTW!)

Redwood doesn't hold a candle to those old Edwardian Tories. Actually the Tories have done a good job of keeping the real loonies at the ballot box and out of Parliament. I don't know if it's luck or judgement as until recently the Tory party was very devolved. AIUI, Central Office didn't even have a membership list. I think that's changed now. Forsyth quite a nutter, it even comes through in his books now and again.

I think there's quite a difference between the 1980s communist Government in Poland and the Tories in the UK. Funny how all those despots ran the People's Republic of .... or the Democratic Socialist Paradise of ......

As a kid I used to struggle with the East Germans being called the Democratic lot. They shoot people for trying to leave the country!

Sir_Humphrey

Generali wrote: »

I think there's quite a difference between the 1980s communist Government in Poland and the Tories in the UK. Funny how all those despots ran the People's Republic of .... or the Democratic Socialist Paradise of ......

That's why I said not to take the comment too seriously.

Generali

Sir_Humphrey wrote: »

That's why I said not to take the comment too seriously.

It was meant light-heartedly. Perhaps I should have stuck in an exclamation mark or something.

wolvoman

Sir_Humphrey wrote: »

I thought I'd start a new thread to set out my views on this to try to refine some of the arguments on this issue.

For economic growth to occur, credit is required. This involves getting into debt.

Now, this credit can be extended to individuals, companies or government. From the mid-1990s onwards, there has been a big increase in credit to companies and in particular individuals. This has now crunched.

As a result, government needs to step in to maintain demand. This inevitably means running a deficit (i.e borrowing and racking up debt). Failure to do so will lead to greater economic contraction, making it harder for companies and individuals to pay down debt. This can lead to debt deflation, which is pretty disastrous.

So, if borrowing needs to increase, where is my criticism of Brown? My criticism is not of govt borrowing as such, but him letting both public (govt) and private borrowing balloon at the same time. If you compare this to Germany since the mid-1990s, Germany had to borrow to refinance unification. The big difference is that Germany did not allow private borrowing to get out of control at the same time, and maintained reasonable growth. France did the same, only much less successfully. An insight here must be that to maintain personal debt at a reasonable level and maintain growth at a reasonable level, Government must step in by borrowing.

Of course, the way Germany and France do this without going bankrupt is to have significantly higher progressive taxation (particularly in the good times). And that is the error that Brown, and the majority of the UK electorate have made. If you want good public services for the whole population (eg health and education) for the long term good of the economy, the price to pay is less money for immediate consumption for the relatively well off.

In the end Brown was only doing what he thought (correctly) would be popular with voters.

I'll sum up your point in much less words.
Tax the hard-working, wealth-generating higher-earners so that we can spend more on employing wealth-destroying civil servants with their 7 hour days, 6 weeks paid leave and 2 weeks free, sanctioned 'sick' holidays.

harryhound

I wonder if the Scandinavians and the Germans, get better value for their taxes?
They probably get away with a lower war office budget.
I wonder how much time and effort is wasted in the private sector trying to dodge taxes while working as unpaid tax collectors.

Every time I find a new customer, Gordon Brown gets the same commission as I do.

Here is a link to tax freedom day - of course it is all complete nonsense now, we are just going to print the stuff.

http://www.adamsmith.org/a-history-of-tax-freedom-day/

Sir_Humphrey

wolvoman wrote: »

I'll sum up your point in much less words.
Tax the hard-working, wealth-generating higher-earners so that we can spend more on employing wealth-destroying civil servants with their 7 hour days, 6 weeks paid leave and 2 weeks free, sanctioned 'sick' holidays.

Given everything we have found out over the last 18 months and after finding out yesterday about the inner workings of HBOS, I am truly astonished that anyone could write such and complete and utter c**p on a public forum.

Conrad

Humphrey

I'm reading Oliver James' latest book.

His sentiment minds me of yours here.
I agree, I'm all for taxing the rich;

Sting
Ben Elton
Hugh Fernly whatsisface
McCartney
Bono
T Ben (£3m house)
Geldof
Toignbe
Bremner
Fry
Paxman
K Wark
J Snow
G Mombia


Instead of merely breaching re - distribution, they can actually have a try at it!