Government to offer loans to buy cars

Any

Generali wrote: »

It wasn't me that posted how great Holland was.

I love Holland and I have a lot of time for Dutch people. I don't agree with Dutch fiscal policy by and large but it isn't my problem.

Neither you nor Sir H seem to have worked out that the bill for all this spending will have to be paid. Also that you need to find someone that will lend you the money.

These are both going to be difficult things.

It's late here and so I'm off to bed. I'll leave you to ponder......

I am glad you have. So exactly how much are all those benefits we will pay to unemployed people to survive cost us??

Any

Generali wrote: »

It wasn't me that posted how great Holland was.

Sorry, I wasn't sure who was it.

Sir_Humphrey

Wookster wrote: »

Its very easy to blame the banks entirely for this mess however

- Credit rating agencies
- Auditors
- The regulators
- Estate agents
- Individuals in their personal capacity
- Banks
- The Bank of England
- The government

are all responsible in part for the mess we are in today - each of them contributed in some part to the mess we are in now.

If you don't see that then you don't really understand how we have gotten into this mess and why it is a mess.

All the bodies you mention (government included) deserve some blame, but the banks are at the centre of this. The government is at fault because it failed to govern the banking industry tightly enough. It is at fault for giving the greedy shysters like Fred Goodwin and Adam Applegarth exactly what they wanted. I doubt this mistake will happen again in the foreseeable future.

Any

Wookster wrote: »

Its very easy to blame the banks entirely for this mess however

- Credit rating agencies - no, they only provide information, it is up to the institution how they interpret them
- Auditors - hmmm, maybe...
- The regulators - ABSOLUTELY
- Estate agents - just doing their job... house is only worth what people are willing to pay
- Individuals in their personal capacity - Yes, some of them uneducated enough though..
- Banks - Oh yes!!
- The Bank of England - together with the regulators
- The government - as above

that is my opinion anyway

Wookster

Sir_Humphrey wrote: »

All the bodies you mention (government included) deserve some blame, but the banks are at the centre of this. The government is at fault because it failed to govern the banking industry tightly enough. It is at fault for giving the greedy shysters like Fred Goodwin and Adam Applegarth exactly what they wanted. I doubt this mistake will happen again in the foreseeable future.

Actually, the regulators and the government carry the can. They are the ones who set the framework and pass legislation. If they see reckless behaviour then they should be legislating against it. Legislation is the power of veto.

Its all to easy to say it was those greedy fat cats but actually its a bit naiive and simplistic.

This thing happened just 80 years ago and assuming humans are still on earth it will almost certainly happen in the next 100 years.

Sir_Humphrey

Wookster wrote: »

Actually, the regulators and the government carry the can. They are the ones who set the framework and pass legislation. If they see reckless behaviour then they should be legislating against it. Legislation is the power of veto.

Its all to easy to say it was those greedy fat cats but actually its a bit naiive and simplistic.

This thing happened just 80 years ago and assuming humans are still on earth it will almost certainly happen in the next 100 years.

Please don't misrepresent my argument by claiming I just blame fat cats.

Blaming poor regulation rather than the banks is like blaming the police if your house gets burgled instead of the burglar.

Wookster

Sir_Humphrey wrote: »

Please don't misrepresent my argument by claiming I just blame fat cats.

Blaming poor regulation rather than the banks is like blaming the police if your house gets burgled instead of the burglar.

There is zero similarity in the comparison to the police and burglary. The police can't be there all the time. Regulators and government have a serious and ongoing duty to monitor banking activities.

They simply took their eye off the ball - or as John Gieve said not too long ago, simply underestimated the severity of the excesses being built up. Either way thats almost criminal negligence.

Oh you can also add to the list Institutional investors for not playing a more active role in the governance of the companies they have invested so much in.

Interestingly the Guardian has the following article which isn't disimilar to my list:http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jan/26/road-ruin-recession-individuals-economy

Sir_Humphrey

Wookster wrote: »

There is zero similarity in the comparison to the police and burglary. The police can't be there all the time. Regulators and government have a serious and ongoing duty to monitor banking activities.</p>

I agree the regulators are at fault, for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. I will provide a more detailed analogy. A serious criminal is not caught by the police, despite leaving plenty of evidence (i.e police negligence) and commits a further crime. Are the police morally responsible for the further crime? No. Is it partly their fault? Yes. But the main fault lies with the criminal.

Wookster

Sir_Humphrey wrote: »

I agree the regulators are at fault, for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. I will provide a more detailed analogy. A serious criminal is not caught by the police, despite leaving plenty of evidence (i.e police negligence) and commits a further crime. Are the police morally responsible for the further crime? No. Is it partly their fault? Yes. But the main fault lies with the criminal.

Again, no similarity. Do you really think that Gordon is going to try and slow the growth that he boasts is the longest period of uninterrupted growth the country has ever seen?

The banks might not have known what they were doing was silly but the regulators sure did:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/2008/12/hl_what_the_bank_of.html

Breathtaking is all I can say.

So you blame the banks - what sort of loans do you think the banks made that were bad?

Sir_Humphrey

Wookster wrote: »

Again, no similarity. Do you really think that Gordon is going to try and slow the growth that he boasts is the longest period of uninterrupted growth the country has ever seen?

The banks might not have known what they were doing was silly but the regulators sure did:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/2008/12/hl_what_the_bank_of.html

Breathtaking is all I can say.

So you blame the banks - what sort of loans do you think the banks made that were bad?

I am not talking about Gordon Brown, I am comparing the regulators to the police, and the criminal to the reckless bankers (for the sake of analogy). In the analogy, the police know there is a criminal about. My analogy is therefore just about watertight.

Whether the bankers did what they did through malice or stupidity, it is still mainly their fault. They are morally responsible for their own actions in either case.