Paypal and Mastercard

Keith_B_3

Hi, maybe someone can make me see a little light at the end of the tunnel?? I recently (more poigniantly stupidly too) bought an item online using paypal (not ebay) to buy a mobile phone. The company selling the phone has since stopped answering any emails, and obviously the phone hast arrived.

I appreciate the rule 75 cluses (ie i am not covered as I used a third party), however paypals own website instructs the buyer to use their Credit Card Company to pursue the loss in the event that the seller does not have the money to repy the amount.

What i am struggling with is that their (PAYPAL) site says one thing, Nat West Mastercard Say another, and I am left without the not insubstantial loss of money over £100. I dont understand why Paypal Can't instruct a chargeback for the money i paid for something that was never posted when they allowed me to be invoiced using their system in the first place - I have asked for proof of post (or a reference number, refund or explanation however out of 6 emails none havehad a responce as yet.

I wont ever do it again, however I am a little gutted that I fell foul of this and feel incredibly stupid about the whole thing. Hopefully someone can say something positive?

I wouldnt mind but it is something i would normally tell others to steer clear of.

TFD_2

Have you started a dispute with PayPal? They're pretty useless at the best of times. The problem is if PayPal cannot recover the money from the sellers account, they will not credit it to you.

With a regular credit card purchase, you are dealing with a retailer via a merchant services provider, who are also liable. PayPal doesn't work like that, and they won't stump up the money out of their own pocket despite the fact PayPal makes it very easy for crooks to con money out of people.

If you do a chargeback, PayPal will the persue you for the money!

Keith_B_3

I have started a dispute, I just dont understand how they have the right to make money out of me but not help when things go wrong. Not sure why they have the right to pursue me for money though if i start a chargeback with my Credit Card, it isnt me whom absconded with the money, surely they should chase the dodgy dealer that sold te non existant item tome?

I posted on here in the vain hope that there was a loophole somewhere, I am utterly deflated over the whole thing and just wish I hadnt bought the phone.

Strangely I understand my Credit Cards Position, I just cant get past the whole paypal thing and how when it suits them they do exactly what they want. It isnt my first issue with them and it wont be my last LOL.

I am gutted that I got taken for a ride, I shall stick to ebay and actual shops from now on. Thanks for responding though, hopefully the company will have a few quid in their account which i can claim back through paypal, but i wont hold my breath.

TFD_2

Keith_B wrote: »

I have started a dispute, I just dont understand how they have the right to make money out of me but not help when things go wrong. Not sure why they have the right to pursue me for money though if i start a chargeback with my Credit Card, it isnt me whom absconded with the money, surely they should chase the dodgy dealer that sold te non existant item tome?

I posted on here in the vain hope that there was a loophole somewhere, I am utterly deflated over the whole thing and just wish I hadnt bought the phone.

Strangely I understand my Credit Cards Position, I just cant get past the whole paypal thing and how when it suits them they do exactly what they want. It isnt my first issue with them and it wont be my last LOL.

I am gutted that I got taken for a ride, I shall stick to ebay and actual shops from now on. Thanks for responding though, hopefully the company will have a few quid in their account which i can claim back through paypal, but i wont hold my breath.

Once a dispute is raised PayPal will put a hold on the sellers account for that value (if they have any balance), and if they agree you haven't received the item they will refund you. What they won't do is give you the money back if they can't get it themselves. The problem is that PayPal aren't a merchant services provider in the traditional sense, and you can't do a chargeback, as effectively when you pay via credit card, you are funding your account by the card, and then paying from your PayPal balance. It's the way they work around it.

PayPal are a very unpleasant company with questionable ethics. They also make it so easy for scammers and poor companies to take credit card payment, where a regular merchant services provider wouldn't touch them, or would put guarantees in place. I won't pay for anything of any value by PayPal (other than via ebay where there are some security measures in place) for this very reason. I also don't trust any online retailer where PayPal is their only payment method, as this suggests they are bedroom boys or crooks!

Keith_B_3

Thanks for that TFD, makes me feel a little better that it is not just my opinion of them. I once asked them to provide information under the Data Protection Act, however (as with ebay) they dont beleive certain laws actually apply to them! I guess I will just have to wait and see if I get anything back at all. I certainly will not be using paypal again unless it is on ebay, I have learnt my (very expensive) lesson!

Jemma-T

Ignore ANYTHING PayPal say as they confuse the law with their often illegal T&Cs and are forever updating their T&Cs when they get dragged through the courts or fined throughout the EU.

Get the simple facts that cover you (Consumer Credit Act/Distant Selling Regulations) and get everything (dates, who you've spoken too etc) written down and work out exactly what it is you want.

If PayPal want to play their games let them jump through their own ridiculous hoops and then contact your bank. In the meantime if you want to feel a bit better complain directly to your bank instead of waiting.

Personally, I would never use PayPal or GoogleCheckout etc for anything over a few pounds as their T&Cs are often laughable. And when you do get a problem they ignore what the law says and they know most people will drop a complaint due to the hassle or ignorance.

Keith_B_3

Interestingly, i rang Nat West Mastercard this afternoon, and was informed they will make a charge back to Pay Pal's Bank, and that I wont be liable to Paypal for anything i then recieve. They have to wait fo the paypal process to end, but at least I will get my money back (or so I was told).

I just dont understand why paypal cant automatically take money back from a supporting bank account when the money was obtained under false (criminal) pretences in the first place. I may be missing something here, however I am seeing red at th moment just thinking about paypal and their inneptitude.

Hopefully (fingers crossed), Nat West will be able to remedy this. Given that Paypal recommend users to take this course of action within their T's and C's, I cant see them being too upset if they then have to adhere to their own rules! (but a little bit of me cant help hoping they will be a little upset, assuming I actually get my money back).

Will update this listing once I get more info, as I think it may be of use to anyone else whom gets scammd outside of ebay.

Best regards, Keith

dazza.mk

Paypal only have access to people's bank accounts via a Direct Debit, if they were to take money automatically from supporting bank accounts then the account holder would be able to reclaim immediately via the Direct Debit Guarantee.

Keith_B_3

Doesnt make it fair though that miscreants can get away with this kind of activity, and paypal are essentially happy for them to do so. For me this is the last straw with them, I wont ever use them again apart from ebay (which unless i choose not to use ebay i dont have a lot of choice over when paying for items).

It is such a shame that we live in a word where people think it is OK to steal and rip off another, and that corporations like paypal seem to live in their own little world where there are no morals and where the outside legislative forces dont apply.

I completely understand that there have to be rules, but when one person steals from another, and this can be proven, surely the same rules should protect the person whom has ben stolen from? By this i mean that the direct debit should not be an excuse not to reclaim the money from the person committing the theft. If a person is caught stealing from a shop, they must return what they stole or pay for it, why cant it be the same when buying something on the internet using paypal?

TFD_2

Keith_B wrote: »

Doesnt make it fair though that miscreants can get away with this kind of activity, and paypal are essentially happy for them to do so. For me this is the last straw with them, I wont ever use them again apart from ebay (which unless i choose not to use ebay i dont have a lot of choice over when paying for items).

It is such a shame that we live in a word where people think it is OK to steal and rip off another, and that corporations like paypal seem to live in their own little world where there are no morals and where the outside legislative forces dont apply.

I completely understand that there have to be rules, but when one person steals from another, and this can be proven, surely the same rules should protect the person whom has ben stolen from? By this i mean that the direct debit should not be an excuse not to reclaim the money from the person committing the theft. If a person is caught stealing from a shop, they must return what they stole or pay for it, why cant it be the same when buying something on the internet using paypal?

Is it a limited company, sole trader, Nigerian scamster you purchased the phone from? You still have the usual ways of recovering the money, through the courts etc.

Once you do the chargeback be aware that PayPal might help themselves to the cash from your bank or credit card, to replace the funds - they are notorious for doing this.

Keith_B_3

Am a little confused as to how they will be able to recalim any money from me, if they use the excuse that the direct debit guarantee prevents them doing it to recover my money in the first place, alsoit seems rather unfair that they would be able to do this and yet claim they cant do the same thing to recover my money in the first place.

In any event as the chargeback is something they actually promote within their Ts and Cs I would think they had little leverage to do this. If they do instruct any direct debit without my authorisation, I will instruct the bank to reclaim it, and start a fraud complaint (I have already spoken to my bank about this).

If I need to use my provider to reclaim the money, I think I will then cancel my PayPal account, or at least cancel its association with my bank account by rescinding the direct debit.

Failing al else, I will take them to court, as essentially what they then do is theft as I wont have given permission for the removal of the funds via direct debit - the exact same reason they give me for not taking back my money from the shamster in the first place.

By the way, please let me know if anyone thinks this is incorrect as I will double check anything pointed out to me with my Bank, then post the responce on here so everyone can benefit.