Taking LL to court, NOT UK

lostinrates

Before anyone yells about this being O/T as not UK, having mntioned this in another thread sometime ago I was asked by a couple of people to keep them abreast of how my case in Italy case goes.

The case, and inded the apartment, is in Milan, and the reason I'm posting now is bcause this week is the deadline for the LL to submit a counter claim, the first hearing is the end of the month.

Background: in Italy tenancies are very different. We, for flexbility, wanted an atypical term length (1 year renewable not the standard 4+4 years). This property fit the bill, being in a good if unfashionable location, having safe off road parking (not so common without a separate garage in Milan) and was 'basically' furnished. Because we didn't know how long we would be in Milan furnished was preferable to us ..unfurnished in Italy means you fit a bathroom, kitchen and even somtimes your own boiler!

Anyway, we saw the apartment in August, towards the end of the month, it was scaldingly hot ...and dry, and the apartment had obviously been slightly shabily repainted. Despite the shabby furniture (we bought throws and cleaned lots!) we loved it and were very excited. It was a ground floor flat, with only one flat above. The flat above was unfinished (our flat was say, 40 years old) and there was a tarp on the roof, but the LL told us the roof was completed and the tarp was there for three unsealed windows that were to be fitted before October, then he'd not do any works in th flat until next summer at the earliest. 'Our flat' seemed dry, had a new boiler and was essntially a little detached villa! So we took it gleefully. It was not big, three rooms plus bathroom, but they were spacious rooms, and it was perfect size/layout for us.

To cut a very long story short, we ended up finding out
that the house was not water tight, not only were windows not fitted but the roof bhind where we could see was not completed, essentially a faux overhang was there to suggest a roof from below, the tarp was the roof!

The rain took out the elctricity, and also consequently the boiler, havy rainfall a ceiling, bfor that it had mrely run down a wall and during and there were serious complications with damp and mold, as might be imagined. The plumbing also turned out to have serious, revolting, habits in hefty rain. The council came out and declared the property uninhabitable (noting this had already happened in the past but that works were meant to have been done to make it habitable, but they obviously had not)

We moved out March before last (to a super flat with super landlord.)

Because I'm keping this brief I'm not going to go into the plethora of details /negotiations with LL, but it was unpleasant at times!

Now, our claim as well as for damages (inc doctor's bills) is for the rent we paid in advance to the time the property became not watertight, and our deposit. Our lawyer felt we could sek substanial damages with a strong case based on evidence from the council, our builder/plumber and the doctor but we have stuck my our guns and really our only seeking to recover what was actually lost financially. We had no furniture of our own there, thus the main damages were to clothes etc.


One of the main points, which is interesting as thre is little direct similarity in UK law, is whethr the plumbing, and rodding or 'blowing' there of can ever be considered structural. While it is my belief that under normal circumstances under Italian law it should not be (and therefore would be a tennant not a LL expence) the council and builder strongly agree with us that with the way the plumbing was it would be impossible, by design, to cope with either normal 'traffic ' in the rain, or with regular use (narrow pipes feding into other pipes, not straight to normal outflow, and with no fall until tank).

Well, wish me luck that there is no counter claim, that will drag it out longer!

silvercar

If you win the court case, how do you get your money? Go back to court and appoint baliffs?

lostinrates

silvercar wrote: »

If you win the court case, how do you get your money? Go back to court and appoint baliffs?

TBH w don't know yet. There is, or would be, goods to the value of - that was discussed with our lawyer, just not goods we particularly want, and sale of a old unserviced porsche might not be great at the moment! I think we'll worry about that if its found in our favour.

Mary_Hartnell

More or less two years on and still no justice?!

Makes this saga look like rapid justice.
(I don't want to be depressing but the outcome was probably not worth the effort expended, but it did draw a line in the sand for perfidious Brighton landlords)

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=227606

I rather fear you are up against a "straw man" - perhaps you will end up owning the building site?

We are all citizens of the EU when it comes to bent bananas, but there is a long way to go on the legal front, it would seem.

lostinrates

Mary_Hartnell wrote: »

More or less two years on and still no justice?!

Makes this saga look like rapid justice.
(I don't want to be depressing but the outcome was probably not worth the effort expended, but it did draw a line in the sand for perfidious Brighton landlords)

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=227606

I rather fear you are up against a "straw man" - perhaps you will end up owning the building site?

We are all citizens of the EU when it comes to bent bananas, but there is a long way to go on the legal front, it would seem.

re time, things move very much slower there in this kind of proceeding. DH went to check the other cases listed on the same day in our court...there is one that the preliminary haring was in 1969..so two years doesn't seem to bad, lol. Also, I'm not sure there is EU unfairness here (DH is Anglo-Italian, the landlord is also not Italian, infact not EU but a longterm Italian resident married to an Italian- his wife is on our side :rolleyes: ). There is no question that racism is present in Italy, but I really do think this is fairly standard passage of time for this sort of thing there. Makes waiting lists for UK cases seem much better!

Its, regretfully, a reasonable sum of money involved, we paid our rent in advance for the year and a reasonably large deposit. Its not country-economy busting amounts but a year's rent is a substantial amount to lose. We are essentially after nine months rnt and th deposit back. Damages, though evidnced are notoriously hard to claim in Italy, so although our lawyer was keen to claim for a lot we would be very surprised to make any significant recompense for those.

The building site would be fantastic, lol, but disproportionate:D and, er, the LL is th neighbour, so maybe a little friction .

lostinrates

Well, there IS a new development, the LL has, at his last moment, issued a counter claim. So th hearing next week will not go ahead but we will go to meet our lawyer to read the counter claim and prpare defence for that.

Its a normal procedural expectation, but nevertheless, a very unpleasant feeling, especially so late in the day.

lostinrates

Well, I've read the counter claim, and as it rally only could be, its a mixture of untruths, deflection and inaccuracies. *sigh*.

LL says cat litter was found in the pipes causing a blockage and we did it bcause we hav three cats. Actually we have two cats, and although they have a littlr tray (and ar house cats when city living) I clean it each night and put it out with the rubbish...never down the loo??? Although I have never put litter down th loo, I'm not sure that you could even fake evidence to that end?

Also, the LL claims that this blockag was what put out the boiler, not the rain pouring in on it. Thankfully we have DVD evidence of water pouring down through th ceiling onto th boiler: I understand that that doesn't mean there was no flooding from below but it does show there was a deluge from the top!

LL claims there was no mould (again, DVD evidnce and the councils devclaration of not fit for habitation should surfice) but if ther was it was our fault for nver opening windows (I LIVE with fresh air at all times we wer home at least one of the thre windows was open, but one would have been closed at all times too, on a rotating basis, to keep the cats in) In fact, the house had roll down shutters with vents and quit often I had these down but with the vents open and the windows open, but it made it very dark, so became impossible when we had no electricity!

Other things (e.g. medical evidence ) are all disputed and h claims from us a further 700 Es (extra to our prpaid rnt and deposit) so its all very interesting. I'm not sure the number of cats etc is particularly relevant but there sems no way to conclusively prove this although it would be nice to show all the little flaws and inaccuracies in the counter claim. Grrrrrr.

Still going next week to work through our rsponse and submit (we already have th flights booked and other things arranged for while there). I'm told th rsheduled hearing should be scheduled relatively swiftly!

silvercar

Thanks for keeping us posted.

Nothing happens quickly in Italy. I wouldn't be surprised if backhanders are involved.

lostinrates

silvercar wrote: »

Thanks for keeping us posted.

Nothing happens quickly in Italy. I wouldn't be surprised if backhanders are involved.

Thanks for providing me with a friendly ear, or should that screen to vent to!:D

Its northern Italy (Milan) so at least not the south, (where subito -now- is an alien concept, so I am told!) but back handers are inded possible, particularly I suspect, to witnsses.

The other thing of som note, is that LLs wife is a witness for LL, she was very keen to se us prosecute him, told us he was evil, and was worried about me being victim to him so used to slip saints cards under the door for me. She was very keen for us to know that we could not imagin how evil he was! Some marriage!

lostinrates

After urther delay of almost six months we are in court next week. . It will be interesting to see what happens. I bet people here taking LLs to court can at least be thankful its quicker here!