School Term Time Fines

Gangstabird

I am a bit stuffed with this. I get given my holidays and unless I can swap, I can't always be off with the children. It's not been my week over Christmas for the last 2 years so my Christmas holiday has been just before or just after. I can't change this.

I have always asked for permission and have included letters from my employer that I can't have that time off. They have been fine.

I think that 10 days (two weeks) is a reasonable request. Providing you are not keeping them off with colds/got up late/dentists/any other excuse all of the time, then there shouldn't be a problem.

I remember going to the dentist/doctor at 10am and being back at school by about 11.30am just in time for lunch.

Rosie75

dwileflunker wrote: »

Let's first disregard the university aspect as it really has nothing to do with this thread. I don't read the Mail but it obviously hits a nerve with you, Guardian I suspect, but even so if you don't think the taxpayer pays your salary then you must be in denial. I think most teachers are good hardworking people who in the main agree with the same things as the parents of the chidren they teach. I have a small number of teacher friends who say outside of the big exam times children being missing from class is no great problem as most catch up in some way. I don't know if this correct but suspect it is the commonsense approach, however, the governmental world we now live in means they are not allowed to voice these opinions. The problem is not the teachers, but the people who employ them, who as far I'm concerned forget that they are puiblic servants. Like the PC brigade they now think they are more important than the people they serve, or should I say suppose to serve, because I don't see much coming my way in the way of service. The responsibility for the results of a child being taken out of school during term time is that of the parent, and only when the parent is allowed to undertake that responsibility without financial penalty will some sort of normality return to this ragged society that has been created by this and previous governments, along with the myriad of selfimportant local authorities.

Unfortunately it is never the parents, but the schools who get the blame when results and / or attendance are not up to scratch, and who are subsequently penalised financially or - in the worse cases - threatened with closure. I suspect we probably agree, however, that there needs to be a significant move towards personal, rather than state, responsibilty.

You seem to forget that people like myself who work in the public sector are also taxpayers and that, contrary to your belief (in your earlier post) that I "don't have any right ... [to say] what taxpayers' money should be spent on", I actually do. As far as I'm aware freedom of speech and the democratic process don't only apply to taxpayers in the private sector and / or those who don't work. And, I am not "in denial", thank you, - if you re-read my previous post you will see that I am simply saying that in the kind of ecomony we inhabit (which incorporates capitalism and a welfare state) we all "pay" each others' salaries, whether private or public sector, by virtue of being both taxpayers and customers. The difference is that I don't to feel the need to point out to those who serve me in Tescos that I am paying their salary as it tends to come across as rather rude.

Rosie75

Curlywurli wrote: »

I wish that I could take ten days off work during term time, but I think that this would possibly cause uproar! People are quite happy to let their children take ten days off, but how would you feel if your child's teacher took ten days off?

It would certainly cause uproar. I know a teacher whose employer allowed her a week's leave during term time to attend her brother's wedding abroad, on condition that she paid for the cost of the supply teacher (which was three times her weekly wage!). Parents were extremely unhappy that their children had a different teacher for the week and complained to the school, which has now decided not to allow leave for similar circumstances in the future.

Curlywurli

I for many many years worked in an industry (not education) where I was not allowed to take time off during school holiday times in the same way that you can't take time off during term. If, as a teacher, I said to you that you can't have a holiday during school holidays I suspect you'd be quite upset. Industry has to manage both work and holidays, surely it is not beyond the limits of the highly educated teaching fraternity management to come up with something that will broadly satisfy parents and teachers the whole year round.[/quote]

People seem to think that the teachers decide if you can have time off or not but we have nothing to do with it. I don't disagree with parents taking their children out for irregular breaks, I would if I could, I can't afford expensive holidays any more than the next person. I do think that there is an issue with the same parents, year in year out, who take their children away for two weeks. I think it would actually be better for the government to focus on those who take the odd Mon/ Fri off every single month to go to their caravans! It's very clear when children are genuinely ill or going away for the weekend.
Children can find it extremely hard to settle back into school when they've been away, particularly when this is tagged on to school holidays, e.g. being away for four weeks (2 school) over the Easter period. There also seems to be a big misunderstanding that all children are given an extra ten days off and you have to take those ten days- that is not the case. I wouldn't advise children to lie to their teachers. They always let slip the truth, children do just chat away. Some of the parents would be mortified if they knew what their children were telling me- but that's another story!

dwileflunker

Rosie75 wrote: »

Unfortunately it is never the parents, but the schools who get the blame when results and / or attendance are not up to scratch, and who are subsequently penalised financially or - in the worse cases - threatened with closure. I suspect we probably agree, however, that there needs to be a significant move towards personal, rather than state, responsibilty.

You seem to forgot that people like myself who work in the public sector are also taxpayers and that, contrary to your belief (in your earlier post) that I "don't have any right ... [to say] what taxpayers' money should be spent on", I actually do. As far as I'm aware freedom of speech and the democratic process don't only apply to taxpayers in the private sector and / or those who don't work.

I have to agree, some of the problems in schools are down entirely to the parents and they should be blamed and not the school, especially when not backing teachers regarding discipline and the like, and they should take responsibility for this in the same way as I advocate they take the responsibility for taking their children out of school. You can't simply take responsibility when it suits you, but my argument is parents aren't allowed to take responsibility at all, because the authorities deem they are not competent. They may well be right in some cases, but that road leads to a totalitarian state, be it right or left wing, and I don't advocate that under any circumstances.

Of course you are entitled to say what you think, even if I don't agree with it, but unfortunately we are rapidly reaching the situation where if you disagree with things promoted by the government (local or national) you are branded as everything from a homophobe to racist or any other antagonistic pidgeon hole they can fit you into.

Digressing slightly, I believe that students change the world. Historically student demonstrations around the world have had monumental influences on political history, some good some bad. In this country we haven't seen any student political activism for many years. Why? Maybe because the state is taking away their responsibility. Perhaps the students you recieve have been programmed not to think for themselves but to think how they are told. The future students of this country are in our schools now and maybe a bit of rebellion by taking them out of school will do them a power of good in the future.

Rosie75

dwileflunker wrote: »

I have to agree, some of the problems in schools are down entirely to the parents and they should be blamed and not the school, especially when not backing teachers regarding discipline and the like, and they should take responsibility for this in the same way as I advocate they take the responsibility for taking their children out of school. You can't simply take responsibility when it suits you, but my argument is parents aren't allowed to take responsibility at all, because the authorities deem they are not competent. They may well be right in some cases, but that road leads to a totalitarian state, be it right or left wing, and I don't advocate that under any circumstances.

Of course you are entitled to say what you think, even if I don't agree with it, but unfortunately we are rapidly reaching the situation where if you disagree with things promoted by the government (local or national) you are branded as everything from a homophobe to racist or any other antagonistic pidgeon hole they can fit you into.

Digressing slightly, I believe that students change the world. Historically student demonstrations around the world have had monumental influences on political history, some good some bad. In this country we haven't seen any student political activism for many years. Why? Maybe because the state is taking away their responsibility. Perhaps the students you recieve have been programmed not to think for themselves but to think how they are told. The future students of this country are in our schools now and maybe a bit of rebellion by taking them out of school will do them a power of good in the future.

Well, we are on the same wavelength on this subject. I would love to see my students being less apathetic, but I suspect that the government has put paid to that with the introduction of fees, which has engendered such a spirit of passive consumerism into most students as to make it highly unlikely that we will be seeing a re-enactment of 1968 any time soon. The worst legacy of this goverment, as far as I am concerned, has been the creation (quite deliberately and without many people noticing) of a populace which is apathetic, disenfranchised and scared to say what it thinks. As the same time (and much like the USA), of course, as we are constantly hearing the words "freedom", "democracy" and "fairness" branded about by the goverment, words which have very little relation to the reality of our over-regulated personal and professional lives. Even in universities (which one would have thought should be all about the independence of the individual mind) the government is doing its best to ensure conformity and restrict freedom of speech.

dwileflunker

Rosie75 wrote: »

Well, we are on the same wavelength on this subject. I would love to see my students being less apathetic, but I suspect that the government has put paid to that with the introduction of fees, which has engendered such a spirit of passive consumerism into most students as to make it highly unlikely that we will be seeing a re-enactment of 1968 any time soon. The worst legacy of this goverment, as far as I am concerned, has been the creation (quite deliberately and without many people noticing) of a populace which is apathetic, disenfranchised and scared to say what it thinks. As the same time (and much like the USA), of course, as we are constantly hearing the words "freedom", "democracy" and "fairness" branded about by the goverment, words which have very little relation to the reality of our over-regulated personal and professional lives. Even in universities (which one would have thought should be all about the independence of the individual mind) the government is doing its best to ensure conformity and restrict freedom of speech.

On that point of agreement I think we should call it a night. Thank you for your thoughts and I feel our students are in good hands..

Pont

Going back to the original post - what is this all about schools imposing fines? My understanding is that only courts can issue fines, I don't believe any individual school has such authority. Certainly if my child's school demanded payment of a 'fine' I would be answering 'certainly just as soon as I receive a penalty notice from a recognized court', or at least 'to which court should I make my cheque payable to?'. For those who have paid such a fine - you didn't make your cheque out to Blah Blah Blah School Fund by any chance did you? If so you have been logged as making a 'voluntary contribution' to school funds - take a look at your school's end of year accounts - bet you don't see any record of fines imposed on parents!
I work for a LEA, if we have reason to fine a parent we still have to go through the regular legal route in order to do so ie. several warnings, EWO reports, applications to magistrate courts, pre-hearings etc. etc. We can't just say that a parent has been naughty and dish out a fixed fine!

mandragora_2

I think that's probably the process they're referring to - parents get taken to court, under existing legislation; in extreme cases it can be done under a system our LA calls 'fast tracking' and at secondary level, some kind of fine can kick in at 10 unauthorised sessions of absence - ie five days, though most heads wouldn't seek prosecution at that point, you might well expect a shirty letter. Fines of, I think, up to £5k can be issued, and/or a prison sentence, although it would be a case much more extreme than the situations being descibed here.


I can see both sides of the argument, to be honest - for me, education was the way my generation of my family broke a real cycle of poverty and deprivation. I believe passionately in every child's right to every second of an education, and family holidays, too. I wouldn't ever take my children out for a cheaper holiday (we went camping!), but aknowlegde that others may disagree. Schools wouldn't seek prosecution if parents' employment meant that was the only time a holiday could be taken, and they wouldn't succeed if they tried.


As I'm also lucky enough to be a teacher, I work hard to prepare and deliver my lessons. The head insists that all lessons, right up until the last lesson of the last day, are proper lessons, with effective, measurable, learning outcomes. And he checks. And in the unlikely event of anyone not teaching they'd be for the high jump - and rightly so, in my opinion.

blueberrypie

Pont wrote: »

Going back to the original post - what is this all about schools imposing fines?
I work for a LEA, if we have reason to fine a parent we still have to go through the regular legal route in order to do so ie. several warnings, EWO reports, applications to magistrate courts, pre-hearings etc. etc. We can't just say that a parent has been naughty and dish out a fixed fine!

Various people can issue fixed-penalty notices for truancy:

From http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Parents/Schoolslearninganddevelopment/YourChildsWelfareAtSchool/DG_066966
"As an alternative to prosecution, authorised local authority staff, police officers and headteachers can issue penalty notices to parents of children who are not attending school regularly. The penalty is £50, rising to £100 if not paid within 28 days. If you fail to pay a penalty fine, you will be prosecuted."

and from http://www.parentscentre.gov.uk/educationandlearning/rightsandresponsibilities/behaviourandattendanceyourresponsibilities/penaltynotices/
"What is a penalty notice?

* Parents of a registered pupil whose child fails to attend school regularly are committing an offence.
* Penalty notices provide an alternative to prosecution for the offence in the form of a fine. There are two levels of penalty notice - £50 (if paid within 28 days) and £100 (if paid later than 28 days but within 42 days).
* Parents who pay the penalty notice within the time limits cannot later be prosecuted for the offence to which the penalty notice relates.

What if I dont pay?

* If a parent does not pay a properly issued notice within 42 days, the LA will prosecute for the offence of irregular attendance under s444 Education Act 1996."