Penalty Fare Sting at Waterloo

MrSmartprice

Freols wrote: »

At least then the government had total control over the monopoly.

At the moment, certain sections of the country are monopolies - run by private companies.

It's totally backwards economic logic. The only reason private companies have to be efficient and offer good services and even low prices is to out perform their competition and get more customers... you give a private company a captive market and a sector of the economy... well you are asking for trouble.

Not forgetting the fact that the 'privatised' railways get far more in government subsidies than they ever did when owned by the state!:rolleyes:

Freols

4.12 Where penalty fares apply, passengers must allow enough time to buy a ticket, including time to queue, if necessary. Under normal circumstances, passengers may still be charged a penalty fare if they join a train without a ticket, even if there was a queue at the ticket office or ticket machine. However, we expect operators to provide enough ticket windows, ticket machines and staff at staffed stations to meet the queuing standards set out in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement and their Passenger's Charter under normal circumstances. This standard is normally five minutes at peak times and three minutes at other times. If queues at a particular station regularly fail to meet these standards at certain times or days of the week, the operator must either take action to sort out the problem before a penalty fares scheme is introduced or make sure that passengers are not charged penalty fares when these queuing standards are not met. This might include providing extra staff or ticket machines. A penalty fares scheme must include arrangements for telling authorised collectors when long queues build up at ticket offices (see paragraph 4.33).

This is interesting... I had to queue for 7 minutes and then the machine wouldn't except my completely valid card.

make sure that passengers are not charged penalty fares when these queuing standards are not met

So... thank you Department of Transport... but without risking a criminal record or a court case funded by my student loan, how do you reprimand a company for ignoring your guidelines?

The appeal will do nothing because the "independent appeals service" (Actually self-styled by the train operators, not independent at all) does nothing unless somehow you have been issued with a penalty fare despite having providing a valid ticket! Any circumstances that might have brought about the non-presentation of a ticket are never considered.

So how, how, how do I do anything about the fact that they ignored the Department of Transport rules and failed to inform the fare collectors of long queues at my station due to a broken machine?

Any help would be fab.

dzug1

Reading those guidelines there is the possibility you might have got away with it if you hadn't tried to use your Oyster card. That takes you from not just having no ticket to trying to use an invalid one, which makes it very difficult for them to view it as anything other than cheating. You know it isn't, but no-one's going to believe you.

I suspect all you can do is write to SWT pointing out the guidelines and see if they do anything. I predict they will point out that the guidelines refer to 'regular failure' and try to portray it as a one off and not comment on the failure to inform.

Freols

dzug1 wrote: »

Reading those guidelines there is the possibility you might have got away with it if you hadn't tried to use your Oyster card. That takes you from not just having no ticket to trying to use an invalid one, which makes it very difficult for them to view it as anything other than cheating. You know it isn't, but no-one's going to believe you.

I suspect all you can do is write to SWT pointing out the guidelines and see if they do anything. I predict they will point out that the guidelines refer to 'regular failure' and try to portray it as a one off and not comment on the failure to inform.

Quite true. Anyway, I think it's good to be affected by such things every now and then. It's the first time the "system" has ever really committed an injustice against me, and it helps to wake you up to it all. So really I've gained a lot from it all, including a greater understanding of the law, and what's wrong with it.

I suppose advice to other people in the same situation is to cite the passenger charter and department of transport recommendations when they try to issue you with the penalty fare. Don't let them put anything down on the form other than "had to queue for more than 5 minutes due to faulty machine". It was all too easy for the revenue protection person to tick the Oyster card box, and it was obviously their intention to catch people trying to use them. Furthermore, I have faith in the fact that I would win a court case against them in this situation, but I also know for a fact that appealing wouldn't do a thing, as I did not have a valid ticket at the time of inspection - which is the only criteria the appeals body looks at, as it is self-styled by the train operators themselves and does not work in the interest of the passengers or enforce government guidelines.

In short, you have to be prepared for court, and I'm not prepared to be a guinea pig for a measly £20.

FARE-COP

I'm in the process of trawling through all the recent posts on this subject as I've only recently joined the site and have spent my working life in this very field. I do not work for SWT.

I'm not going to put a lengthy reply in to this one, but will answer a few important points mentioned along the way.

Freols says: 'I stll haven't broken the law'

Wrong - you have. When in an area that is covered by penalty fares the whole route beyond those signs becomes what is called a controlled ticket area. If you enter that area without a ticket when the booking office or a machine were there for you to buy a ticket, you are in breach of railway byelaw 17.

About the penalty notice, Freols said: 'I didn't sign it'

It doesn't matter.

About the railcard fare Freols said: 'for some incomprehensible reason the railcard increases the fare my friends paid'

Read the railcard conditions that you signed when you bought it and you'll see why. There are time & fare restrictions on it's use.

Hard as it may seem, we have to read and abide by conditions in all walks of life. That applies in the case of your Oyster so tell the truth in any appeal you make and don't be pushy or write a load of irrelevence in your letter. You might be lucky.